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*ani
writes:How can me and my fiancée come to an agreement? She's lived with me in a house I own and I knew she had some debts so I sat down with her to help sort them out. Around £20,000 in debt including car payments. She has 3 horses which cost her around £600 per month to keep. Going through her repayment figures left her with about £150 spare which is probably best case scenario. I told her she needed to sell a couple of horses because she's living beyond her means (wouldn't let her sell her best horse even if it meant me giving hobbies up). Her answer is to move back her parents so she saves on half the bills of the house. For me this shouldn't be an option when we were looking at getting married next year. Hard decisions need to be made and her obsession with the horses is making her blind to this. We've decided to 1 month trial separation. Can this work and I am I being unreasonable?
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (5 May 2015):
 I am sorry to hear this, OP. Sorry...but not surprised ,I must say. AS you have seen, alas, love is not everything, then you've also got to sort of belong to the some " world " ( psychologically ), and yours sounded very different.
You sound like the kind of person who ,if they had £30000 of debt ,wouldn't even sleep at night ( and I am not making fun of you, OP- lots of people could not rest easy in such predicament ). She... she probably counts that, if push comes to shove, eventually her parents will bail her out. And / or... anyway, what's the worse that can happen ? That somebody get stiffed for 30000. These are not the times of Charles Dickens, there's no jail for debts anymore , and, even if she gets repoed, horses and all, well.. at least she will have lived and competed and ... "dressaged " just like she wanted for some 30 or 35 years or more. So, a small price to pay for the satisfaction.
These are two world visions colliding, OP,so , who knows, if you had stayed together probably your differences would have cropped up in other areas beside the horses. So: ot was for the best- upwards and onwards.
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female
reader, Honeypie  + ♥, writes (5 May 2015):
 I'm sorry it didn't work out the way you wanted it too. However, you CAN look back and know that you DID TRY. You didn't just toss in the towel.
Competing in dressage is EXPENSIVE, I have a couple of cousins who (when they were younger) competed all over Europe. The transportation alone? Jeezz.
Anyways, THAT is nor for HER to figure out how to go about her life and finances. And for YOU to move on and upwards.!
Good luck.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (5 May 2015):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThought I'd provide an update to my situation. It's almost been 12 months since she moved out and we sat down together to talk and we decided to call it a day. She's no longer working, sold an horse then her parents bought her another. Her debt was £30,000 and not £20,000. She's competing at a higher level in her dressage and says she needs another horse to get up to a good standard for when her current horse retires. Looking back and reading the advice on here we probably should have ended it 12 months ago but, I felt with being engaged we owed it to ourselves to try. Would like to thank everyone again for their advice. Onwards and upwards.
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female
reader, celtic_tiger +, writes (13 June 2014):
 Wow, she teaches and still has time for horses? Most school teachers I know spend more hours marking, setting work and doing lesson plans in their spare time. I teach at a University, and the paperwork is far less stressful.
Divorce is a messy thing OP, and you would be surprised how courts divide assets. If it came down to the wire, it might not matter how much you put into the property, it could still well be split 50/50 - why do you think these celebrity divorces are so messy? People can walk away with a very nice paypacket for doing very little work.
I think the point we are trying to make, is that she seems to not have a mature grasp on life. SHE was willing to take out and £8000 finance deal (probably paying more in interest) on a car, KNOWING she was already £12000 in debt. THAT is irresponsible on so many levels. Not just for her, but also for her beloved horses.
As her fiancé you have every right to question her grasp on money, as a married couple all your financial decisions are SHARED. If she cannot handle that, then she isn't ready for a serious relationship. By giving in and allowing her to still essentially be reckless with cash, you are setting a precedent for the future. I.e if she gets herself in a mess, you will always bail her out.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (12 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi Mark. I'm not willing to become a horse person, just to spend a bit of time there. I have helped out before and quite enjoy it. I suppose I meant once or twice per month. I'm certainly not trying to change who I am and if I had something else to do or go then I would. She's aware of the debt and has changed a hell of a lot this last 4 to 6 months since getting a job so I don't think it there's a worry of it happening again. £12000 of the debt is related to the horse business she had and £8000 of that was just feeding, bedding and vet bills etc because they weren't selling.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (12 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionShe got a teaching job in Jan so she is earning and paying her debts off now. If I'd known how much debt she was in i wouldn't have let her get an £8000 car. She could have bought a run around and I'd have used that because I work local and her out of town. All hindsight though. Can you believe her dad owns 4 shops and would still have her buying and selling horses? CRAZY! As for marriage that's a million miles off now and even if we did marry my sister in-law said a court would look at what I put into the house before she moved in and what she contributed. She's only ever paid half of the bills.
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male
reader, Mark1978 +, writes (12 June 2014):
 To be honest I think it was way too soon to get engaged after just twelve months for any couple, but when you add insecurities, councilling, etc. It was clearly too soon.
If you do get back together, I don't think getting married is a good idea until she learns to deal with things more maturely. You say: "She easily gets overwhelmed with things like work, money or any pressure situation and now her mind is in overdrive", well marriage isn't going to work unless she can learn to cope with responsibility. She has gone home to her parents as she doesn't have the maturity to accept home truths or the ability face up to her spending and responsibilities. Her parents are too willing to bail her out financially rather than making her learn to deal with the consiquences of her actions and the value of money.
You need to be careful as her parents are a big part of the problem. She sounds a bit spoilt, three horses and so forth, £20k debts...! You don't want to be stuck with a wife who has no idea of the value of money and her parents are likely to close the bank of Mummy n Daddy if she has a husband.
Personally I think admitting to her that asking her to give up two horses, and spending time with her and her horses is a mistake. As you were engaged you had every right to reason with her and be concerned that you would be marrying someone living way beyond their, and soon to be your, means. Something had to give. If you want this relationship to work there is no point trying to become a "horse person", as that wont solve the underlying issues. If she wants to keep the horses and her lifestyle and live with her parents, that's her choice, but she cant have it all!
Mark
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female
reader, celtic_tiger +, writes (12 June 2014):
Another thing to think about - if you do marry, how do the laws work about financial responsibility? Would you actually become liable for any debts she has or incurs later on?
If she cannot control her spending or learn to budget, would you end up with bad credit or baliffs?
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female
reader, celtic_tiger +, writes (12 June 2014):
A relationship is about compromise. Sharing. Supporting. Equality.
From what you have said, it appears that things are very one sided.
You are expected to
* pay the bills
* pay the mortgage
* spend weekends helping to muck out the horses (after working all week)
*Help her pay off/manage her debt
All so she doesn't have to take responsibility for her own actions and choices? Did she really need to have a new car for example? Could she have got a cheap 2nd hand runabout?
When you are self employed and running your own business, you have to make difficult choices when it comes to money and lifestyle. Unless you have bottomless pockets you cannot fly fast and loose getting into £20k debt. It just does not add up.
Sometimes you have to accept that a hobby does not make a good business. Financially a business has to be able to support itself, and if it isn't viable it won't work.
I think she sounds like she is not ready for marriage, or the responsibilities that it brings. She is too wrapped up in her own *wants* horses, new car, lifestyle etc, and they come first. Whilst she lives at home her parents are essentially bankrolling her, unless she chips into the bills as well. As it stands, with you, she has to stand on her own and EARN to live the life she wants. At home, she basically can do whatever she pleases, learning nothing about responsibility. If she keeps on like she is, that debt will grow.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (12 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionTo be fair she wanted the trial separation as much as me. She easily gets overwhelmed with things like work, money or any pressure situation and now her mind is in overdrive. I've told her i was hasty in telling her to get rid of 2 horses and asked her to understand it's not easy to put yourself in a "horse person's" place. At least she knows if I think I've been wrong I will admit it. That's something isn't it? ;-) Like i said we're talking again on Sat night and I'm going to suggest me getting involved on Sundays with the horses (if and when we get back to more than dating) so I can appreciate them more than I already do. May also help us grow as a couple instead of spending from 8 til 6 at weekends apart.
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 June 2014): There might be damage done by opting to be apart; instead of working out a reasonable solution while together.
Once you put it down on paper, I guess you now see you may have rushed to judgement about expenses. Let's hope she can see beyond the fact that you suggested to take time-off apart.
You might have time to think independently; but the problem with that is, she may not have reached the same conclusion and might have enjoyed being single. Even if only temporarily.
Be careful about trial-separations. The results you get may not be what you've intended.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (12 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionCindyCares: Thanks for a good in depth answer from both points of view. I decided to make contact last night because not talking wasn't helpful. I got an accountant friend to work out a payment plan where she keeps all her horses and pays me less and seeing it on paper made it look more realistic. I know how much her horses mean to her but not being horsey I sometimes lose sight of that.She needs more time to think (we'll talk again on Sat) because it's made her question whether she's ready to move back in, get married etc. I think it may be a case of starting from the beginning by dating. This might do us both good or it might not, only by trying will we find out. We were engaged after 12 months and have been together 19 months so it has moved quickly. Also I had insecurity issues earlier in the year which I had counselling for and I'm now on top of. I think she realises she feels she's been walking in egg shells the past 6 months and staying at her parents might be best for now.
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female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (12 June 2014):
Of course, Op,- I realize that what you suggested is reasonable and it's the same advice that a financial advisor would give.
A financial advisor without the passion for horses , though- without a life that revolves around horses.
The girl has a debt, of course it would nake more sense if she'd just sold ALL the horses, actually, and, for a while , forgot about riding and competing. I think she understands that .. rationally. She just does not WANT to do it, as long as there is a way, any other way, to avoid it. She found the way ( going back to her parents )- and she is fine . From her point of view it makes perfect sense, because what's at stake is too precious for her to give up.
Yes, she may have been the one to insist for moving together and getting married ( women often do ). Maybe she had not thought it trough from a practical point of view ( she does not sound very money savvy ), maybe she hoped or counted you'd be willing to pay the whole mortgage yourself, and/ or to help her out, maybe she simply thought that there are good times and bad times in business, and if she is £ 20000 in debt today, that does not mean that the tide cannot turn and she cannot make 40000, or 80000 tomorrow , or in the next years , always through buying and selling horses, - business DO fluctuate. I don't know what she had in mind exactly, of course, but it sounds like she wants or wanted to get married AS LONG AS it does not affect the horse situation.
You look at things rationally and practically , OP, but passions are not rational nor practical.. I find curious how yourself talk about her " obsession " with horses ( your word ), then you act surprised when she implements what for her is the best , most logical solution - going back home and reduce her living expenses.
I hope that in this month she might come around and accept the compromise you suggest, which, I agree, to an observer makes sense. But I think that, yes, she must have felt your ... invitation ?, advice ? plan ? .. as an ultimatum, because you are really starting from very different places re. what REALLY counts, what's really important in life. Apparently what you have asked her to do , albeit reasonable, it 's simply... so not her, and I think she is frustrated that you do not " get " her, same as you are frustrated that she does not get sensible, logical you.
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female
reader, jls022 +, writes (12 June 2014):
I have to say I agree with the OP here. It might be that horses are a 'part of who she is', but if she's £20,000 in debt then she is living way beyond her means and needs a reality check.
If I were you OP, I'd stand my ground as the last thing you want is to be with someone who is racking up that amount of debt without thinking it's a problem. I'm not saying end the relationship, but certainly don't make any big commitments unless you want this to be your debt problem too.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (10 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionCandy Cares: Ok let me explain myself better. I asked if she would like a month apart to think which she agreed to. There was no arguing, it was a quiet and calm conversation and a mutual decision. I'm only trying to help her financial situation and want her to keep her favourite horse. It was only last month she was looking at selling the other 2. She won't be giving her passion up completely, just making it more financially viable. She was also the one who wanted to move in and hinted about marriage. I still don't agree with her going home though, as a couple I wanted us to work through it together. Maybe it's because she felt like i was giving her an ultimatum?
Good point about "it's a part of who she is" though, that made me stop and think.
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female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (10 June 2014):
OK, so whip me everybody ( horse-whip me ), I am with the " why should she give them up ". I mean, you fell in love with " the girl with the horses ". It sounds like it's much more than a hobby or a passtime, it's a passion, a lifestyle, a part of the person she IS : she is a person with horses. Yes, of course keeping horses is damn expensive, - but obviously it is top on the list of her priorities, it's what she CARES about in life, it's not as if she had to give up her hair extensions or acrylic nails. She is clearly willing to do anything to keep her horses, and as long she can find a legal, honest way to do that ( she is not stealing or pushing drugs, she is accepting her parents' help- since when is it a crime having wealthy and generous parents ?! ) I don't see why she should not.
...Because if she should not , she could get married to you and share your mortgage ?... well, apparently this perspective is not as appealing to her, and this goal not as fundamental , as keeping her horses is.
Which makes her probably not ready to get married, and / or not suitable to marry YOU , but do not necessarily makes her a mean selfish bitch. You are just two people with different needs and different life visions. I can't blame you for wanting to get married, - and I don't blame her for feeling that marriage is not the be-all-and-end-all of love life, you can love and have good relationships even without being married and sharing a FINANCIAL life. ( Particularly if by getting married you'd have to give up something you are so wildly passionate about ).
You just don't " get " each other, and are not willing / able to reach a substainable compromise . I think she already chose her horses, - and I also think that by giving her an ultimatum ,like, "you have a month of time to do what I want or else ", you ended up shooting yourself in your foot; after that ultimatum, in her (horse ) shoes, I would definitely discard any search for a middle course, and would just keep my horses.
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reader, anonymous, writes (10 June 2014): "That's why I suggested a 1 month trial separation so she could reevaluate and hopefully see my point of view. I'm not getting my hopes up though."
Wow! You sent her home until she conceded to your point of view. Now I see. Yep...it's over. You didn't mention she had the animals on her parent's property. You purposely slanted the story to make her look unreasonable. That wasn't very nice of you.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (10 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWiseowl: I made it clear to her that I would never let her sell her best horse but she needed to sell two and that's what any financial advisor would say. I know there's two sides to a story but that is the truth. Her parents will readily admit that if she's ever had a problem they have sorted it for her. I believe it's probably over too but my hope is that time apart MIGHT make her realise that she can have a horse and me.
Neither of us are bothered about having a family btw.
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reader, anonymous, writes (10 June 2014): Sorry, but your relationship is over and done. At least from the stand-point that you have already separated.
Engaged couples should practice working out their problems.
You may as well break it off, if you're going to hit a bump and run. You don't have trial separations. The challenge is to stay together.
I guess this means you don't know how to settle disputes and compromise. At least, she isn't willing to. I think you simply gave her an ultimatum. Sell all the horses. Isn't that what really happened? If she thinks keeping only one is unreasonable; even to cut her own expenses, then she is being fiscally irresponsible. She has no clue how to budget.
Marriage requires a lot of compromise and/or sacrifice in order to work. You two ran from each other the minute things got a little rough. I do not presume to know what is considered reasonable for the cost of owning and boarding a horse in the UK.
I've been a horse-owner, and it may be a lot more expensive here in the United States. There are a lot of inoculations that are required by law, boarding your animals can be pretty costly; at least for the most humane and healthy sheltering of a large animal. Proper food, grooming, plus riding tack. I understand that horseshoeing is legally restricted to people with special qualifications in the UK. So three horses mean triple the costs.
She is willing to devote practically all of her income to her horses. You knew that she was very attached to her animals before you moved her in. You also knew the costs she was incurring to maintain their care. So why didn't you talk all this out beforehand? A reasonable compromise from an outsider would be to sell two of the horses. Then share the cost of one animal, as part of the household expenses.
Now why would I suggest that you end the engagement?
That is because I think her horses mean a lot to her, and you may not mean as much.
So I guess, she has already chosen keeping her horses over being with you. For me, that would be the message received when she moved back home. The communication ended. Meaning no compromise can be discussed.
I think she has made her decision. Now you have to make yours. If you ask me, I think her returning hinges on you allowing her to keep her horses. How will you compromise?
I don't really think your fiance' has a true grip on the cost-of-living or reality. Until she moved in with you, she was living with her parents.
They may have allowed her to put all of her earnings into upkeep of her horses. You are all of sudden imposing the real-world of bill-paying and contributing to household expenditures. That doesn't seem to resonate with her. Maybe she is expecting you to financially support and take care of her. I think that is the problem here. Her sense of entitlement.
Well, if you want to continue your relationship; perhaps you might want to withdraw your engagement. She has some growing up to do, and I don't think she is quite ready for such a big step.
If you know she can't afford the horses, when will there be time and money to start a family? Horses require a lot of care, and it isn't cheap. They're not like family pets; like a dog, cat, or goldfish. They require boarding and a lot of room; unless you have stables and a pasture on your property.
Give her more time to grow-up. She's not ready for marriage.
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male
reader, mani +, writes (10 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHoneypie: she complains quite a lot about not having enough time to ride them now she's in a full time job. She doesn't pay stable fees because they're on her parent's land. She has said since that she isn't ready for a house and mortgage etc. That's why I suggested a 1 month trial separation so she could reevaluate and hopefully see my point of view. I'm not getting my hopes up though.
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female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (10 June 2014):
I think you are being spot on, actually.
600 for 3 horses is cutting it at the low end. Farriers, feed, stabling maybe but then you have the emergency vet fund (and hopefully insurance on the horses too) and with all that i can definitely run well over 600 a month.
I think she is counting on YOU to fully carry the load for her. (house and house bills) and she gets to use her money on fun (horses).
Honestly if she is WORKING full time how does she have the time to ride ALL 3? I had a horse from age 15-26 and MANY time I had to find someone I could trust to ride him, because I was in college and working 2 jobs. And then later working full time with an hours drive to the stables. There were even times where all I had time for was mucking out and grooming the horse. ( I paid less in stable fees if I mucked EVERY morning) - Later I ended up paying someone else to do it, but still. Taking care of, maintaining, and exercising a horse takes time - LOTS of time.
I would hope her parents can knock some sense into her, but I kind of doubt it. I mean she sounds a little entitled already that THAT is a learned behavior.
I would also advice you to no tie any knots til she is debt free.
Maybe, this is her way of telling & showing you that she isn't ready for marriage?
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reader, mani +, writes (10 June 2014):
mani is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for the reply. I don't think she does need 3 horses but her parents and friends are telling her "why should she give them up?" I've given her home truths but she listens to every word her parents say. Buying and selling horses was her job for the last 7 years which is £8000 of the debt. She recently won a National Championship on her best horse and like I've told her I'd sell the shirt off my back to help her keep him. She competes on one of the other horses and the 3rd is a foal that was born from a horse she bought to sell on, she has an emotional attachment to it. Btw I'm 34 and she's 28.
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female
reader, celtic_tiger +, writes (10 June 2014):
No, you are not being unreasonable.
Life is tough and you have to cut your coat according to the cloth you have. If that means budgeting and cutting back, then that is what you have to do!
£600 a month is a MASSIVE amount of money. That is a mortgage payment on a house. If she cannot afford to keep the horses, then she needs to either earn more money, or get rid of them.
By running back to her parents, she is not accepting responsibility for her own actions, which is worrying for your future as a married couple. Once married and finances become intermingled, how much of your hard earned cash would end up being spent on things for her, whilst she didn't contribute? What happens when you have unexpected bills on the house to pay? Leaky roof, blocked drain, etc ... would the horses still come first then? What about when you have children? Where does the money come from?
Horse riding is an expensive hobby. Does she really need THREE horses? She can only ride one at a time? What do the other two do when she is busy?
It sounds like she does not know how to manage money or budget. These are important life skills and perhaps she needs some home truths about it.
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