A
female
age
51-59,
*ear Mandy
writes:OK here's a question up for debate, not asking for help just your views on the subject. Random I know lol.DOMINATRIX Do you think it's prostitution to be a dominatrix woman/man. ( for anyone who dont know what that is, it's where someone pays you to abuse them, in all sorts of ways) No sex just things like beat them with a stick, or kick them with heels on. etc etc...I know mean right lolMy veiws are, if there is no sexual contact involved then I dont feel it's prostitution, I mean I could beat someone up in a boxing ring and get paid for it! and equally enjoy and get my anger and frusrations out on the person who's willing. However if there is sexual activites involved then yes, your selling yourself, so hence prostitution.whats your thought on this peeps?? Reply to this Question
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female
reader, Dear Mandy +, writes (27 February 2012):
Dear Mandy is verified as being by the original poster of the question I guess from reading your views there is still a very long way to go for these kind of women to be excepted into our society as hard workers instead of prostitutes, I dont agree with selling your body, or porn films, I find it to be degrading on both parts. But the dominatrix side of things I still find a hard one to come to a conclusion. lol
A
reader, anonymous, writes (27 February 2012): I don't think of it as prostitution since it is not actual sex, but I guess some could argue otherwise. I doubt many prostitutes are "happy" with or enjoy their job whereas some dominatrix do seem to be.
Catering to people's sexual needs who choose to use a prostitute for that purpose must be really de-humanizing to everyone for the most part. There is so much abuse, drugs, crime involved in it- it's not a healthy way to live your life, it's all pretty pathetic when you think about it.
I saw a documentary on prostitution in England a few years ago- one of the women interviewed said she felt very unhealthy emotionally and she just did it for the money. She planned to stop when she had made enough money to secure her financial future, but she essentially hated it and the men she "serviced" she was doing this privately from her home I think.
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female
reader, Miamine +, writes (27 February 2012):
 "The ENTIRE base of your arguments rests on the idea that prostituted women choose to be there"
People can read for themselves, that I'm very careful not to generalise like this. For instance, I don't think all "johns rape and murder their clients", as reported by some prostitutes some of them seem to be sad, pitiful and lonely. I don't like absolutist statements at all. I just don't agree with putting bans on what people consent to do. There are many things that will dramatically decrease prostitution, and I've tried to highlight some of them.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (27 February 2012):
"The 68% isn't wrong, similar studies by governments have found similar numbers.... "I don't know about similar studies for which you don't provide details... I am directly challenging this figure and the original work the research came from. Sigh.. methodology... The researchers couldn't be bothered to find a proper random sample of prostitutes, so they went and took testimony (verbal evidence) from only one set of clients from one particular shelter for women who wanted help to get out of prostitution. This shelter gave these women money, and had a "prostitution is bad" policy. Most of the women who were interviewed worked on the streets. The sample was biased, the clients views may have been influenced by their need to get help and money. It took a long time for this study to be properly peer review, because the researchers refused to provide the evidence and data.A follow up research that was done after this by different people took a different sample of prostitutes working in different areas, and prostitutes working in different countries. The sample was also much bigger as well as being more varied. The original researchers were forced to rewrite the whole thing, put in amendments all over the place. The original study has been declared invalid by the original authors.. (I can provide you with the links)Results... the picture is mixed, just like most sex studies are. The follow up research done by somebody more neutral found, that prostitutes on the streets suffer from more danger and report more incidents of violence and abuse. They are also more likely to report incidents of childhood abuse, rape in previous relationships and previous drug and alcohol abuse. Women in brothels, are less likely than street walkers to have suffered such things. Women who are escorts or work from home showed the highest levels of satisfaction with the work they choose to do. The follow up research also highlighted the issue of male prostitutes, which the original researchers neglected to do.You put all prostitutes in the same category and demand that ALL PROSTITUTES ARE RAPED AND SUFFER ABUSE. But somehow you seem to think prostitutes are mostly young children and abused women, males are neglected. In the UK many prostitutes are university students, who haven't been abused, don't take drugs and haven't been raped, but choose it as a way to pay of their student loans. Many of the street walkers who used to exist have disappeared, because of the declining use of addictive substances like heroin and crack cocaine. There is probably a growing problem in strip clubs where the girls decide (on their own by private arrangement) to take their clients home.Again, that is why many prostitutes are no longer feminists, why they avoid the people who tell them they are wrong to do what they do, and why in the UK, prostitutes have set up their own union, they don't feel represented by women who tell them what to do.Bad research that is not fit to publish, does not help anyone at all, and discredits the many varied experiences that people that sell sex know is involved. It also does not allow for change over time, and so doesn't even know where to find and how to tackle prostitution which is problematic.. 92% of women don't want to be prostitutes.. yep, another very funny statistics... just like 92% of grave diggers, 92% of sewerage workers also don't love their job... They do it because of the money, not because it's something they love. But to stop doing it, you would have to pay them £20 every 10minutes.. that's the kind of money that some prostitutes make, not for full sex, just for a blow job.People turn to prostitution because it pays a hell of a lot more than a minimum wage job. Sort out the economic situation, start paying uneducated, unskilled people high wages and guarantee them flexible hours, then prostitution will dramatically decrease. Talking about bans or quoting unrealistic statistics does nothing at all. Turning all prostitutes into victims and their clients into abusers just allows more people to think that prostitutes are subhuman and worthy of abuse.PS: All civilizations collapse, or do you think that this one will last forever?
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female
reader, person12345  +, writes (27 February 2012):
 The 68% isn't wrong, similar studies by governments have found similar numbers. The ENTIRE base of your arguments rests on the idea that prostituted women choose to be there, but 92% of prostituted women do not want to be there and the vast majority of prostituted women began well before the age of consent, illegal or not. It doesn't matter to the johns that they're young, in fact many enjoy the fact that they are children. The majority of prostituted women are raped at some point while doing this. The majority of prostituted women experienced childhood/prior sexual abuse as well. Prostitution is not just a business transaction like selling a dress. It's not like Billie Piper on TV. It's the most dangerous job in the entire world and for many it's full of abuse, rape, and trauma.
You seem to cite ancient Rome as a positive example a lot in these kinds of arguments. Rome encouraged sex with young boys and brutally murdering people for entertainment. Their civilization also collapsed.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (26 February 2012):
I can't argue with your campaign to wipe out prostitution because it is impossible. Rape is forcing someone to have sex against their will and it is illegal. Prostitution is a contract to have say for gain and financial reward and in many countries it is legal.It is incorrect to say that they are the same thing. As has been pointed out, some women (and men) CHOOSE to sell themselves. I can't really see how you or anybody in the world can stop that. You mention children, but sex with under aged children is paedophilia and this is against the illegal. Trafficking again is forced sex and rape and again is illegal.I did mention sexuality across time and location. Such societies do not exist now, but ancient Greeks, ancient Romans, pagan tribes had less sex restrictions, and their sexual practices included orgies, sodomy (which has only recently been made legal since the 1960's in many countries). Our current morality is very new, when you look at the whole history of the world.Like the pornography issue.. How can you FORCE men and women to stop selling themselves for sex, and how can you FORCE men and women to stop paying?No there is no justification for women to be raped and murdered. But that assumes every prostitute will end up dead, and no prostitute has the right to consent. Any prostitute has the right to go to the police if they face abuse and this is an area that the law should deal (and are) trying to deal with. Many prostitutes are angered by such statements that them victims when they don't feel like one, you tell them they don't know what they are doing, you make judgements about their lifestyle and you attempt to run their lives.Not all prostitutes are street girls but this is what you seem to imply. The 68% (of ALL prostitutes) quote for PTSD is wrong. I've read the original research and the criticisms, the authors have updated and qualified their findings due to very serious flaws in the original research.Back to the subject, very few dominatrix work from the streets. Yet they sell sex (of a type) for money. They usually have an exclusive client list, and they don't seem to turn up raped or murdered.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (26 February 2012):
You could replace prostitution with rape in that whole thing and it sounds more or less the same. I don't really care if it always has existed. So has rape, murder, war, etc... The fact that something has been around forever does not justify its continued existence. There is no justification for a class of women to be regularly abused raped and murdered simply because there is a demand for it.
"The only societies where prostitution doesn't exist, is in societies that have no laws on sexuality and everyone has sex with everyone else."
There is no such society where everyone has sex with everyone else because no one is entitled to continuous sexual access to other people's bodies. Being prude did not create the demand. Even highly religious societies have and had prostitutes.
The relatively few prostituted men (the ones who are actually treated like the women are) are overwhelmingly children/minors. Most male prostitutes are used by men, not women. Thus the problem with prostitution continues to remain the same: the johns.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (26 February 2012):
"There is no way to make prostitution safe." - There are statistics and then there are statistics.
Prostitution exists in every single society, at every single point in history, it is as old as human beings. Attempts to ban prostitution throughout all of history, have always, and will always fail. The only societies where prostitution doesn't exist, is in societies that have no laws on sexuality and everyone has sex with everyone else. Restrictions and problems with supply create prostitutes.
Don't want to derail this again... But as I said in the beginning, research on sex is very difficult and most sexual activity is hidden. Most women who prostitute themselves are not in the streets, they are normal women who need rent money and trade sex for gifts and money occasionally. Prostitution is an under reported activity. Prostitution is not only an issue about what women do. There are many men who sell sex for gifts/money, again underreported. Usually because they are called players, and spend their time flattering older women to make them feel good, this is very common in poor countries who have a lot of tourists. Prostitution like most of sexuality is not gender specific.
Back to the dominatrix, I was wrong, yes men can be dominatrix's, but they are usually called Doms and their sexual activity comes under BDSM (S&M). However for some reason they don't seem to get paid in any way.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (26 February 2012):
"I don't understand the hysteria surrounding sexual issues at all. Porn is fine, strip clubs are fine, prostitution is fine."
According to whom? According to a small group of privileged women yes, prostitution is fine. That small group is around 8% of all prostituted women. In order to support that small 8%, we have to throw 92% of prostituted women under the bus so to speak.
-68% of prostituted women develop PTSD as a result of prostitution.
-Around 70% of prostituted women have been sexually assaulted during their work.
-1 in 500 prostituted women is murdered making prostitution the single most dangerous job in the world.
-70-90% of prostituted women experienced sexual abuse prior to entering.
-The average age a woman enters prostitution is 12-14.
Male anon you have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry, but you have absolutely no idea. There is no way to make prostitution safe. The idea that you can purchase sex exists in a hierarchy and cannot exist without some amount of dehumanization. If these women wanted to be having sex with these men, they wouldn't need money to do it. Many exited prostituted women call it pay-per-rape for a reason. Because rape includes sex by coercion, and paying someone who otherwise wouldn't have sex to have sex is coercion.
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reader, CindyCares  +, writes (25 February 2012):
 No way !
The willing , conscious intention to arouse the client on the part of the sex worker - and the specific exchange of money with the declared intent to pay for a specific erotic service is what makes the difference.
You stress the fact that there is no body contact, and that the sex worker does not get excited.
I think both objections are irrelevant; particularly the second, the satisfaction of the service provider does not matter at all, it's that of the client that counts , like in any other commercial transaction. ( Does it make any difference if your haistylist enjoys cutting your hair or hates it ?? Either way , he is providing a commercial service ).
As for the first, there are dozen of fetishes , beside the dom/sub scenario, that require little body contact or none at all, at least with traditionally erogenous areas. If you are selling sexual services, you are selling sexual services- whether they involve orifices , feet or whatnot.
It's the concept itself of selling sexual arousal and satisfaction that may ( or may not, of course, according to each one's moral compass ) be questionable, disquieting or repulsive. Which object , act or body part you sell in practice , makes no big difference.
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reader, anonymous, writes (25 February 2012): OK, I just have to tag in on this subject.I don't understand the hysteria surrounding sexual issues at all. Porn is fine, strip clubs are fine, prostitution is fine.IMO, it's the very fact that most folk get all uppity about sex that causes most of the problems. The common theme seems to be that any woman involved in the sex industry is being exploited due to childhood sexual abuse they suffered. I simply cannot believe this. I cannot believe that out of the many, many legions of women working as escorts, prostitutes (especially in places like Nevada), porn actresses or strippers, there are none that are doing it simply because they like it.I firmly believe that allowing women to choose these occupations free from stigma is the way forward. How arrogant can a person be to suggest another's occupational choice must be a result of mental instability or drug addiction? Hell, if I knew I could insist on condoms, STD screening and would be able to press a button and Big Dave would be in the room in 2 seconds to throw Mr Suddenly Wants to Choke Me To Death into the 'quiet room', I'd be a prostitute! And bloody proud of it, too. It's purely the fact that it's illegal, therefore comes with no worker's basic rights to safety that I don't.But I still think less hysteria and more acceptance is the ultimate way forward on this one.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (25 February 2012):
I'll derail the thread as well quickly... sorry it's about legalised prostitution... I'm unsure.. I want women safe (and of course it's more secure to work in a house with bodyguards rather than on your own in a house or in the streets)But, the problem is, many sex workers don't want to work for the government. They find their current work suitable because of the big rewards, no taxation, no rules and a great amount of freedom. What they seem to want is an end to the harassment of them and their clients, an end to the impossible rules which mean prostitution is legal (UK), but trying to find a client is not. Working alone is dangerous, but if you have anyone else in the house, even a maid or a security guard, suddenly your running an illegal brothel.Scottish government looked at this very carefully and sympathetically, I think they set up red light areas, but rejected the idea of government sponsored houses. It's a very difficult issue, I want whatever the working girls say they need to stay safe and happy, including better ways to find a proper exit plan.
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reader, person12345 +, writes (25 February 2012):
Sorry to hijack your thread but...
"Legalising the sex industry would stop a lot of the abuse that currently takes place and people who think non legalisation will eradicate the problem are fooling themselves. There will ALWAYS be a demand for sex."
That's just not true at all. It's never happened anywhere it has been legalized, ever. When you look at places where it becomes legalized, those places become hubs for trafficking and organized crime. The problem is not the stigma around prostitution (which a) is not the cause of violence and b) cannot be changed just by legalizing it), the problem is violent johns. Legalizing it will not make johns stop being violent, it will just cause the industry to expand. Violent johns are not raping, beating, torturing, and murdering prostituted women because the industry is illegal, they are doing so because they want to hurt them. If it was legal it would simply give johns more freedom and access.
The only method that has ever worked to make it safer is the Swedish model. The Swedish model involves decriminalizing the selling of sex, continuing to have the buying of sex illegal, and providing aid (housing, education, etc...) to prostituted women who want out. Within 1 year of that model being properly implemented more than 60% of prostituted women went to the government for help.
I do not think being a prostituted woman is shameful. To the majority of prostituted women it is/was what they thought was the only option and is dangerous and frequently violent. The average prostituted woman begins doing it when she's in her early teens and the majority of prostituted women experience violence and severe mental trauma. 68% of prostituted women experience PTSD as a result. In the largest study of sex workers ever conducted (more than 50,000 interviews) they found that 92% of them desperately wanted out but lacked the means to do so. I do not care if there will always be a demand for prostituted women, there has always been violence directed at prostituted women and so long as patriarchy exists, there always will be. Women should not be placed in harms way because some men want them there.
http://rmott62.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/so-would-you-do-it/
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/the-harsh-realities-of-being-raped-for-a-living-183894.html#ixzz1mSGccFGM
http://rmott62.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/sickened-by-all-the-lies/
http://www.mediawatch.com/?p=489
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reader, chigirl  +, writes (25 February 2012):
 I wouldn't call it prostitution any more than making an erotic movie, or writing erotic novels, are prostitution. You are creating a sexual fantasy, that's all. Every librarian might get accused for doing the same each time they let down their hair.
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reader, Dear Mandy +, writes (25 February 2012):
Dear Mandy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionaah yes but what about this...lol
you work in a bank, a man comes in to disscuss his accounts with you, as your the manager you take him into your office, but the man has a fantasy about being alone with a female manager in the bank, his sexual fantasy has just happened, he pays you for doing his accounts , and got a bonus for your troubles. Are you not then a bank manager, or a prostitute?? ooohh the senarios lol I know what your going to say ( i think ) she never knew therefore no. BUT....its no more different than a dominatrix being paid to do her job, without sexual contact, the guy gets aroused, she dont she is just doing her job?
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reader, CindyCares +, writes (25 February 2012):
Yes. Remember, " engaging in sexual relations in exchange for money ". Now, the sexual nature of the transaction is not determined by your opinion, but from that of your client. There are foot fetishists that pay good money to smell women's stinky feet ,maybe to you stinky feet are nothing sexual, but they obviousy ARE for the guy who pays .
If the client gets aroused by what you do , and if he gives you money to get to that stage of arousal, and you do those things precisely because he gives you money , (otherwise you would not bother or dream of doing them ) - then it is prostitution, regardless of how little ,or nothing, of your body he gets to touch, and regardless if he climaxes there, or wanking off at home, or not at all.
Let me stress that this a "technical ", common sense ,mainstream definition. Legal definitions of prostitution may be different and wide variely from one country to another.
As for the moral angle- if selling sexual release for money is necessarily bad, and exactly how bad ? -everybody will have his own, I imagine.
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reader, Dear Mandy +, writes (25 February 2012):
Dear Mandy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI think she probably still is a lovely girl, just has a different veiw on life to others now. I dont think a job ( any job lol ) changes people too much. But I can see the point your making.
hhmm Not all men want to come to a climax though ( from reading up on this) some /many like to be controlled and forbidden to do such a thing. so no touching, no climax, just whipped or beaten, or what ever else they so desire. does this still make it prostitution??
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reader, CindyCares +, writes (25 February 2012):
Going by the dictionary, it is .
Prostitution is defined as : the act or practice of engaging in promiscuous sexual relations for money.
Sexual relations does not only mean penetration, or oral contacts. It maybe anything finalized to the persons' physical arousal and release.
For that little I know, being a professional dominatrix is not that aseptyc thing you seem to envision...You don't just kick them whip them , then you go merrily your way.
The idea being to bring the client to full orgasm, right under your nose, otherwise where's their fun. Now if this ain't sexual relations...
At least so I've been told by a girl who used to be in elementary school with my son,she has found this rather creative way to pay college fees. (She used to be such a cute little doll, with her blonde braids and her Pink PowerRanger outfit ... Go figure : )
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reader, Dear Mandy +, writes (25 February 2012):
Dear Mandy is verified as being by the original poster of the questionSome really interesting views on this :)
So what if the woman then is a cop? she is in uniform, beats the crap out of some guy, he actually loves it, the end result his arrested, isn't she some kind of dominatrix BUT getting paid by the goverment? lol
And if it was leaglized as a recognised job like i dunno, a clerk tpist, is she still a prostitute then?
I mean if we ALL work for the goverment, in all sorts of jobs, are we not all prostitutes to some extent.. as Cynthia Payne /via Miamines post said , the goverment is our pimp?
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reader, AuntyEm +, writes (25 February 2012):
 I have to defend so called prostitution and sex workers. It is seen as such a negative thing and the 'shame' if you like is always directed at the female part of the deal. Without men in sexual need there would be no female service providers. Millions of men throughout the world rely on sex workers and for the most part the arrangements are satisfactory and private. It is the constant denial of almost all governement to legalise sex workers that has laid them open to abuse from pimps, violence and abuse.
Dominatrixes, I feel, do not fall into the category of 'prostitutes' They are often very serious business women, in control of their own lives who provide their own equipment and space and have a very exclusive clientel list. There are also tantric dominatrixes who work with married couples to help them ignite passion again in their relationships.
I really liked the comparrison with boxing...yes it is exactly the same (money exchanged for pain) but because it is a male dominated field it is not looked at the same way.
Legalising the sex industry would stop a lot of the abuse that currently takes place and people who think non legalisation will eradicate the problem are fooling themselves. There will ALWAYS be a demand for sex.
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reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (25 February 2012):
 I agree with the first anon poster, who said mo money, no prostitution.
If you get paid, then yes.
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reader, The Realist  +, writes (25 February 2012):
 Well there is definitely something sexual involved whether it is there for you or not but I would not consider it to be a form of prostitution.
Even if you are getting paid for the sexual satisfication of someone else you may not see anything more to it then just a relief of tension.
Either way I don't see it as wrong that these sexual fantasies are able to be purchased because making them available to people and public also makes them safer for both parties.
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reader, Miamine +, writes (25 February 2012):
A Dominatrix is a sex worker, just like a stripper is a sex worker, so are women and men who do nude shots. None of them get touched, however their jobs are based upon their ability to give sexual pleasure. Beating men, pissing on men, giving them blow jobs or showing them your crotch, all these are sex acts. Cynthia Payne is a famous Dominatrix from the UK. Years ago she was arrested for not paying her taxes and living of immoral earnings. She didn't argue that what she was doing wasn't sex, what she argued was, if they sent her to jail for unpaid taxes it would make the UK government her pimp. They made her life into a film, but the name escapes me. It's not prostitution if no sex is involved. But it's still a sex worker. The lines are not that clear, many prostitutes will become dominatrix acts if they are asked, and many dominatrix's started out as prostitutes and then realised that not being touched paid more. Dominatrix women (rarely are they men) suffer many of the emotional/relationship problems that prostitutes do.
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reader, Tom Obler +, writes (24 February 2012):
 Hello,
I just think that the role itself is a sexual role. It dominates another and relies on an intimate session with a man or woman. Also, men would tend to want to relieve themselves over the actions. Although it is not sexual in it's physical side, it is sexual in it's nature.
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reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (24 February 2012):
 deep sigh... such mixed feelings on this.
they are providing a service that is needed by some....
and from my understanding the whole thing about it is that it's probably part of a sexual release so I think it's a very gray area...
I know women who were Domantrix but they didn't get paid for it... they were happy to do it not as a job but it was their preferred sexual role.... so if they do it NOT for money but for fun then what?
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reader, person12345 +, writes (24 February 2012):
Sort of... Though I think the experiences of the average dominatrix are so incredibly different from the average prostituted woman that it's difficult to compare the two. Meaning prostitution, as a whole, is extremely dangerous and has enormous levels of abuse and potential for harm to the women and I don't think for dominatrixes that's the same (though I suppose I don't know for a fact that it's safer). Also to mention, in the US in the majority of states it is illegal to harm someone even if they consent to it. Harm not being handcuffs or something, but anything leaving bruises and anything more serious.
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 February 2012): Because the other boxer is punching you back, I don't think you analogy quite works.
The dominatrix role is by definition a sexual fetish. As a fetish, if money is exchanged for the service you are prostituting yourself.
No money, no prostitution.
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