A
male
age
36-40,
*ruelover
writes:I felt strongly about the kind of misleading advice / negative overtones that are often present in the responses to people who've been sexually conservative (or abstinent) and are disturbed to find their SO (significant other) have not. They are often told to "suck it up", in some variant or another like the one below:"You can't hold someones past against them. You can't change the past, it's done with. Either accept it and realise that she's chosen to spend the rest of her life with you or break it off.If you truly loved her you, you would learn to accept her past. Everything you do makes you who you are today; we are all a product of circumstance and if you love your fiancee then get over it" -- While you shouldn't hold anything "against" anyone, you are perfectly entitled to have your own standards and expectations about anything (including things that others might have done in the past)... you do NOT have to accept anything that you don't want to... The past is used in many areas of life, from jobs, to validating you for security clearances, immigration / loan / credit approval... so it makes sense for you to factor that in something as important as deciding who you date (or share your life with, if you're more serious). Past actions are an indicator and while a person CAN change for the better and leave it behind, they still have to live with the consequences... one of which might be to miss out on certain folks who have different values and wouldn't have indulged in similar behavior themselves. They can always find someone else similar to them... no harm, no foul...I find it often the case, that some folks really go wild with a lot of partners / flings in their youth and have their share of fun, and then face the consequences... like experiencing heartbreak / burnout , feeling emotionally empty, something missing in their lives and that's when they decide to "settle" usually with a "stable, nice, provider", who's probably been that way all his/her life and then when they date these people, they deceive their prospective partner by hiding or lying about their past and the poor soul finds out only much later and that's when the problems begin... here on DC, they're told to be "fair" / overcome his/her "insecurities", "truly love and accept"... what hogwash...What the other person is (based on what you know and perceive of them) plays a major role in making you fall in love with them... New and shocking revelations can often change the way you feel about anyone (including people you love)... the depth of your relationship / love can probably determine whether you can overcome such misgivings... but usually if it's something really important (for e.g. someone who has stayed sexually conservative all his / her life because it's that important to them / part of their "value system") then it's best to end things... the fault lies with the person who hid things / was dishonest...Being sexually conservative is a choice and a very good one at that for many people. I find it ironic, that things have to come such a pass that it's acceptable and OK to be promiscuous (at least for some phase of one's life) / have casual sex but somehow "wrong" or weird to be on the other end of the spectrum and value who and when you have sex with. They are both choices, each with their own consequences... don't wanna sermonize but treating sex casually is a high-risk behavior that could lead to STDs, getting emotionally "distorted", hurting others, feeling depressed, and could lead to other kinds of dangerous behaviors (like substance abuse for e.g.)... so there are perfectly good reasons why a person who's responsible, mature and can control themselves can choose to be sexually conservative and have very few partners or even just one for all their life.This is not about men exercising control and wanting "virgin brides", it's about people who live their choices and values and want their partners to share those same values. Have you considered the advantages of being sexually exclusive?1. No baggage coz there's no "past"2. Great and powerful connection built by choosing to wait for the right person (anticipation's a powerful thing)3. Sharing your first sexual experiences with each other really cements the relationships... as you become very special to each other (each other's firsts)4. The kind of discipline that this value system instills also ensures that you work hard on the relationship ( and addressing potential problems) instead of giving up, and this leads to long-lasting relationships.Sure, there are trade-offs with this choice as well (it's not a perfect choice) like potentially "experiencing less" of what life has to offer?! (whatever that means!), delaying gratification etc. but your value system would tell you what you can and cannot live with.A value system that has a "sow your wild oats", "tryout stuff" philosophy has a fundamentally different worldview. It's more about getting your needs (sexual and otherwise, like a "need to experiment" sexually, emotional needs etc.) met and anyone who meets the 'cut' and can satisfy those needs is OK (their past doesn't matter because it's their capacity to meet your needs in the present that's paramount)... so it's not surprising in such situations that people break-up more readily when their needs are either not being met, or can / are being satisfied better by someone else. It breeds a sense of entitlement and greed, and strangely, less tolerance for accepting another person's foibles once in a relationship and things matter (noticed a interesting insight on DC posts here: people are advised to be a lot tolerant and accepting initially while entering a relationship, but they're also told to really "kick the person to the kerb" / "up and leave" at the first sign of trouble when in a serious relationship). No wonder the relationship success rate in such "dump and move on" societies is so low. The irony is that despite living life this way, many people still yearn for true love and want to find that "one" special person all their lives. Which brings me to the main point, that when each person makes the choice to be sexually conservative, liberal (or anything else in the middle), they should be AWARE of at least some of the important repercussions. Choosing to indulge in some kind of behavior because of peer pressure, "felt cool at that time", own insecurities / desperation is probably not very smart and WILL have its own consequences. Wanting to do all of it, and then change to a diametrically different mentality later in life in order to "settle down", is going to be very difficult. We are what we do, and thinking that we can transition easily from such a long-term behavior is a form of dishonesty. It's the kind of dishonesty where people promise to be with each other for life (marriage) only to break-up later or even worse, where they apply the me-first, my needs philosophy to marriage (with the pre-nup clause before they even begin)... what's that? We will be together for life... but just in case ... No wonder relationship success rates are so abysmal... it makes sense for people to not marry in such societies, or on a lighter note, at least re-word their marriage vows along the lines of "We will be together for as long we are." or "We INTEND to be together for life".This very long post was necessary to make a lot of the aunts on DC understand the rationale behind some people's choices and their feelings in this matter cause it might be a rarity in some of the countries they live in (or perhaps the aunts are already well aware of this, in which case I hope they respond a bit more effectively with greater understanding henceforth on issues where someone is suddenly shocked by their partner's past).I welcome an open debate on this, so that I can expand my own understanding and knowledge in this matter.
View related questions:
move on, depressed, fiance, her past, move on, std Reply to this Question
Share |
Fancy yourself as an agony aunt? Add your answer to this question! A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (7 March 2011): The conservative European guy here again.
It`s pure nonsence that we need to jerk it off ourselves. At least if you are a man it comes of itself in he middle of the night. Oh, sweet dreams! What dreams filled with perfect harmony and happiness. If you jerk it off you don´t get those dreams.
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the question YouWish wrote:“To become retroactively jealous of a woman who has had a sexual past is hypocritical since your main source of sexual stimulation came from sexually non-conservative women.”It’s not really the way you are trying to paint it, you know. Firstly, I'm not suffering from rj at all :)Your fundamental assumption is that I as a porn consumer am to blame for everything (including the porn producer’s actions). Let me try to help people like you (no disrespect intended... I mean people who hold this kind of a view) understand. I know I’ve probably written enough to fit a booklet by now, but let me honestly take you through my experience with porn.I had my first experience with it when I was 17 (was curious and was introduced to the world of adult mags and movies by my peers). Here, at this point, I had neither an elder to guide / mentor me / to talk to about such things nor even a great idea of what this was all about. I was just intensely curious. This was new and when I masturbated for the first time in my life based on the visuals that I had seen, all I was thinking was “Boy, this feels so good. This is like a whole new ‘world’ that I didn’t know even existed”… and all my peers had only great things to say about it and had been doing it for a few years already. There was also a certain thrill associated with the whole thing… anticipating new material, doing it in secrecy…At this point, what people like you probably don’t realize is what kind of influence and impact this can have on young adolescents (in my situation)… and the responsibility for that lies primarily with those who create porn (including the actors) and then allow it to reach underage folks (I’m not sure how strictly the age limits are imposed in other places, but many producers of porn do not care about making such material available to young easily impressionable minds)… In fact, in the absence of good guidance (at least to just discuss stuff with) from someone older and wiser, I wonder if the age limit even makes a big difference? Like had I watched porn a year later, when I was 18 or perhaps even 19, I think I’d have been similarly influenced.It is only now much later, during my 20s that I’m able to understand myself and my urges and porn, sexual messages conveyed by the media, society and connect the dots… and gain some understanding of how this is affecting me and my sexuality … what the positive and negative impacts are. Trust me, it’s very easy to not even think about all this and just go with the flow… coz once you start, you are essentially reinforcing a habit of viewing porn through masturbation (which is a very powerful ‘reinforcer’). It takes a lot to step back and analyze things to understand. It takes even more to actually do something about it in matters such as this. So I speak not just for myself, but for everyone who’s probably been through similar experiences… please understand the difference between watching porn, participating in and doing porn and having sex with someone. They’re not all the same. In fact, I and (many men and women) just happened to derive some form of “sexual stimulation from sexually non-conservative women”. It doesn’t mean we really needed it or give it great importance in our lives. Heck, if there was no porn, I’d have simply gone back to using my imagination.Yes, I’m sure there are many sexually conservative people who’ve used porn but do not really feel the porn star is someone they could welcome into their actual lives (just as an e.g.)One more assumption that some folks keep making is that being sexually conservative is the same as having a weaker sex drive (or at least controlling it so as to indulge in it only when you absolutely have to)... I don't think my partner and I will hold back at all :) and I'm sure there are many such people with strong drives who choose to remain sexually conservative because they are well satisfied (emotionally and physically) by their partners.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionCindy, I did get what you wrote earlier… my question was more around why you felt the need to ask such questions in the first place, trying to fit your views on the right kind of motivations for being sexually conservative onto me.I completely agree with what you wrote here:“In other words that you'd consider a sexual act as a special expression of love , to be shared with your chosen one within the frame of a committed, significant relationship. In short, that you saw sex as an act of sharing and communication- not just as mere entertainment”Unfortunately, you seem to confuse masturbation with sex with someone else. I do not view them as the same and I don’t think I am the only one who thinks that way. Let me explain.I view masturbation at a much lower level of significance than having sex with someone I love. Ideally I’d prefer having sex with my lover rather than masturbate, so right there… I give far less meaning or importance to the act. Masturbation to me is a way to get rid of an urge (like scratching an itch); I also use it sometimes as a stress-reliever. It’s quick, allows me to quickly forget about it and get back to whatever it is that I was doing in the first place.So I have a strong sex drive, but I want meaningful (should I also add fantastic sex?! hehe) with someone I love. But when I’m single, that’s not the case, so my sexual urges become a distraction from other activities that I want to focus on. The urge becomes stronger and stronger the more I wait or resist. Until it reaches a point where it becomes a real annoyance (like thoughts about sex literally flood your mind, you start looking at a lot of things, situations, people with sexual feelings) and you want to take care of yourself real quick. That’s when I turn to porn, coz it’s far easier and quicker (and dare I say, more pleasurable?! I can hear some voices already saying “How dare you derive any kind of pleasure from this “despicable”, dishonorable, disgusting activity?) Well, I’m just being honest.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHmmm... a couple folks here seem very upset that I view porn and feel that's hypocritical and that I have no business to have any expectations from someone I date simply because (in their eyes) I'm someone who is doing deeply disquieting and disturbing (should I say disgusting) things. Really ? Seriously, is that what you think? Well, what can I say? I’ll be the first to admit that I’m no saint nor am I an epitome of perfection and I have my own flaws like everyone else. So yes, there could be many people who could potentially find some of what I do and who I am to be very disquieting or disgusting.YouWish wrote:“What's the difference between a few casual meaningless encounters in a woman's past and what you satisfy from porn?”Well it’s the same difference as that between thinking and doing, between masturbating and having sex with someone else. Sort of like when you are role-playing in a video game and end up “fragging” many opponents versus actually committing an act of violence in real-life. Surely, you can appreciate the difference between the two?
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (7 March 2011): This discussion is being derailed with the porn subject. The OP is not a hypocrite for wanting a chaste woman just because he has looked at porn. That's not a very intellectually honest argument to make.Porn is a serious subject. Let's not use it to "tear down the conservative" and score easy arguing points. Any intellectually honest adult can appreciate that there is a big difference between normal porn usage and real sexual acts with other people.
...............................
A
female
reader, lovexlikewinter7  +, writes (7 March 2011):
nothing's wrong with it, but you don't have to shove it down people's throats either. :)
and what's more.
maybe some people just don't like the possibility of never knowing what it's like to be with other partners. who knows?
...............................
A
female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (7 March 2011):
 Truelover,
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I did NOT assume you were a particularly , or even superficially, religious person. I said " spiritual ", not religious. One can be spiritual without following the rules of any specific religion ( probably more,in fact !:)
I simply had thought- reasonably, I'd say - that your desire for a morally and experientially " fresh " partner were a consequence of an olistic vision of sex, like something that belongs to body AND mind. In other words that you'd consider a sexual act as a special expression of love , to be shared with your chosen one within the frame of a committed, significant relationship. In short, that you saw sex as an act of sharing and communication- not just as mere entertainment.
I am not sure where porn watching fits in this picture...
True, everybody is human, and everybody at some point needs a healthy physical release , so everybody occasionally masturbates.
But, at least from the perspective of a sexually conservative person, there is a difference between occasionally having to yield to a biological need, and intentionally seeking it seconding it
and organizing it....The difference that there is between drinking an occasional glass of water when you feel completely dehydrated , and regularly taking the time to mix yourself carefully a nice dry Martini.
Like you say , you find this normal. But, guess what, there is a lot of people , (mostly women,OK ) who don't.
I know , and I have heard of, people who have had multiple sexual partners yet neither watch porn nor condone it. Getting your pleasure from watching other people's sexual acts is,after all, voyeurism- a paraphilia
They find it too extreme. So much for sexual conservatism.
You find unacceptable the sexual choices of many
women nowadays- and many women would find your choice unacceptable AND deeply disquieting. Who's right, who's wrong...in sexual matters a measure of moral relativism is not just advisable but, de facto, simply inevitable.
I think you misunderstood also my reference to an "intact hymen ". I meant precisely that I did NOT believe you would identify purity with an unbroken hymen, and I thought you'd look for moral "cleanness ".
And here, my friend, I am afraid I've lost you - as always, eventually it is a matter of personal opinions and sensitivities. I have a hard time understanding WHY, between a virgin who is abitually slobbering in front of Johnny TenInches giving a good pounding to Gina Vagina ,and getting turned on by the contemplation of the "technicalities", - and another girl who had had a couple of boyfriends which she had been in love with, and felt feelings for,- you'd see the first one as morally " cleaner " ( in lack of a better term ) than the second.. B Then, purity IS just a physical thing for you, after all ,isn't it ?
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionPhew, this has been a long long series of posts (mostly my posts) but I believe I was able to convey adequately what I had in mind. The point is that, yet again, as a sexual conservative I was forced to go to great lengths to clarify my choices (when non-conservatives don't have to come under that kind of scrutiny)...
I think it's all about values... if you're values differ from the majority, you're under greater scrutiny & have to explain more (which shows how tolerant society really is ... even the ones who think they're so tolerant) still this is more tolerant than certain societies where the majority view is cruelly enforced, or going against the majority could result in death...
Wish we all live in a way, in this & other areas of life, that's our choice & our beliefs with no need to conform to the majority.
I think we're getting there.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi YouWish,
"With many women, the stimulation is not visual. It's the emotional and physical in their connection that satisfies their "humanness". Let's say that they cheated on no man. What's the difference between a few casual meaningless encounters in a woman's past and what you satisfy from porn? You said yourself that you were 'moving away from it" since you get into the relationship."
You contradict yourself there, how could it be casual, meaningless sex when they wanted "emotional and physical connection"?? I don't view sex with another person as casual & meaningless... ever...
It's right that it is human to make mistakes, but what things you perceive as a mistake & what kind of mistake(s) that you tolerate is up to each individual, right? It depends on your values.
To me, it's not acting on those urges & having sex with someone else (other than that one special person who as long as the 2 of you are alive will be the only person to experience you that way) & I (& everyone who thinks similarly... indeed anyone on this planet) am perfectly within my rights to live life as I please, & seek out what I desire / what's important to me from my life partner.
Believe me, no one is as accepting as you try to suggest, especially when they feel & care deeply...
Everyone draws the line somewhere. Everyone.
People who accept their partner's past might not if the number of partners goes into the hundreds or crosses a certain threshold (I've always wondered how you can arrive at such a "figure"?), people who accept that might not accept it if their partner was a pornstar or has sseveral videos on the net or was an "escort", people who accept that might not accept a former sex offender (now reformed), people who accept that might not accept a gang-member/killer (they're also human you know, might have done something in the heat of the moment, that they regretted & are now changed...) but still although many could take them as a friend, few (probably ones who've been through similar experiences) would consider them as life partners... so you get my point?
Everyone has limits to what they will / will not accept.
I have mine & it's a pretty clear limit in my mind coz I don't have any confusing min. threshold limit (like yeah, if she's been with 5 before that's OK, if she's been with 35 ... hmmm not so sure, or if it was 1000 times with just 3 partners... I don't want to get into all of that... you know) it's just 0 for me. & I'm living that choice myself & so are several hundreds of million men & women... so I know it can be done by both genders... requires disciple, a certain set of values & certain kind of thinking... that's all (again this is what I prefer & like, not saying anything about other people's right to have whatever preferences they like)...
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi male anony,
"I think sexual conservatism must be held within certain reasonable frames, to make that clear. Like if you find out your partner was not as virgin when you married as you thought, I would not say you should break up the marriage, that would be a promiscuous thing in itself! Marriage is marriage, whatsoever the past. And if a person deeply regrets the past, then it could and should be foregiven. And what if a woman has been raped? Then it is not at all her fault what has happened to her. And I see nothing wrong in marrying a widow, even though I suppose remarried widows to some extent might compare their lovers... "
couldn't agree more...
If you fall in love with someone, but come to know that they'd been abused / raped before... the only thing I'd feel is a deep sense of sadness (although I could never probably fully understand the extent of their suffering) & I'd do everything in my power to make her so happy that she's able to move on from such a horrible experience.
In the case of a one time mistake that she really regrets, I'm not as sure... I'd not really enjoy it but I guess depending on how strongly I love her & feel about this, I'd probably let this go & move forward in my life with her as well.
And one final thing about "using something that's been like 300 years old" (might be much older if you check out some other places) in today's world... there are several things (schools of thought) that are hundreds, or even thousands of years old that we still use today's world (like being truthful, fair in our dealings, respecting the law, egalitarianism, being compassionate & helpful to others as much as possible)... & yes, all of these values do have their own cons... & yet many of us do use them (as much as we can). So as long as someone feels there's something useful in it, they can borrow any idea or value no matter how old, it might work for them. So to each his / her own.
...............................
A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (7 March 2011):
 Truelover, I think you misunderstand. It's not that I'm merely prejudiced against anyone who watches porn. I'm trying to explain that regular porn and masturbation demonstrates the opposite of sexual conservatism.
To become retroactively jealous of a woman who has had a sexual past is hypocritical since your main source of sexual stimulation came from sexually non-conservative women.
...............................
A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (7 March 2011):
Of course if your partner that you're with is okay with it, it's no problem. A relationship is built on the perameters that both parties set for it.
However, you also said this:
"But I'm human, and I gave into temptation... that's all... as long as my partner's OK with it, there's no problem."
Why then would you judge someone based on the humanity of their past? So maybe "being human" to some women is to partake in some casual sexual activities. With most men, it's a visual stimulation that can be satisfied by merely watching porn.
With many women, the stimulation is not visual. It's the emotional and physical in their connection that satisfies their "humanness". Let's say that they cheated on no man. What's the difference between a few casual meaningless encounters in a woman's past and what you satisfy from porn? You said yourself that you were 'moving away from it" since you get into the relationship.
Can you accept without jealousy a woman's "moving away" from things she's done in the past?
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWow! This has been a revelation for me!So much to learn and understand, especially about people's perceptions (or misconceptions should I say)...All of this just goes to highlight the point that I was making earlier! It's alright to be sexually conservative!To everyone, who got so upset with what I wrote and felt that people like me were judging and demanding, consider this:If you'd had a scenario, where a person had chosen to become sexually liberal and experiment (because s/he thought it better for certain reasons to do that than be sexually conservative)... would you have been so up in arms about them judging the people who are conservative? Would you have felt so strongly if they wanted to pursue someone well-experienced, for their skills in bed?It's all about choice. One can choose to be sexually conservative and expect their partner to share the same beliefs as well. It is not a prescription/diktat for others to follow (everyone is different and might have different needs and what works for me might not work for them...) and besides who cares? It's each person's life people. It's just that you have every right to allow/disallow the kind of people who enter your life (your friends, the people you associate with and yes... your romantic partner).You do not have to accept anything because that's just the past, it's normal... You get to decide coz it's your life.This is something that I really wanted to convey.Also, I found so many (incorrect) assumptions here:Like it is always the men who have this kind of an expectation, hence many women here resented being compared to some kind of a "fresh product" or what not...Well, let me inform you, wanting to be sexually conservative and seeking a like-minded partner has nothing to do with gender. There are plenty women who prefer this as well (my gf, folks in other sexually conservative societies, like India, China, for e.g.)I know two women professionals who recently divorced their husbands post marriage coz one of the husbands was a womanizer back in college, and the other had a failed relationship (that got physical) prior to marriage. The important thing is that these women didn't know about this until after marriage and this was a deal-breaker for them as well. They had asked in meetings prior to marriage if there had been a past and the answer was "no" from their husbands (hence my point about deception). So lying/hiding/misrepresenting your sexual history does happen and that's what I was addressing... that's it's a pretty bad thing that can really hurt people later.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYouWish,"What chance would the sexually conservative woman have once the "newness" of your conquest wore off? Porn is oftentimes progressive like a drug. You need more and more extreme stimulation to keep up the satisfaction level. After the newness wears off, forgive me for being blunt, but do you intend to request threesomes? Anal? Folding up into a pretzel while swallowing? Spanking her while you ejaculate your name on her toenails? (okay, getting carried away :P)"-- Lol, you have a lot serious prejudices against anyone (I think mostly men) who's watched porn. Nothing in what you wrote could be further from the truth. It isn't a "conquest" for me. I've not reached the level of porn-viewing where it's effect on me is akin to that of a drug (that's addiction).And I don't intend to request for threesomes (if you'd read my posts you'd know why) or any of the other activities you mentioned... Don't confuse everyone who uses porn with some version of hyper-sexed up, sex addicted, "multi-conquest craving" person (or should I say man, since you're primarily fixated on painting men as the bad guys here) that you've built-up in your mind.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYouWish,"You *use* the women you would otherwise devalue in a real life relationship. You are regularly stimulated by the actions and behaviors of sexually NON-conservative situations, yet you want a sexually conservative woman."Believe me, that thought has crossed my mind several years back... that's one of the reasons why I'm not exactly proud of my porn-viewing. The way I see it, many of these women seem to be doing it by choice, and I'm in a place in life (no partner) where I needed to watch... that's all, I don't have a lot of respect for them, nor do I think their profession is something to aspire to (wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know). But I'm human, and I gave into temptation... that's all... as long as my partner's OK with it, there's no problem.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYouWish,I have been a habitual porn viewer for the past 8 years. I do not like anal sex (isn’t that supposed to be painful for most women), nor do I like very extreme stuff (I have watched a bit of it to know what I’m talking about… it’s a turn-off for me). I also realize that excessive porn viewing is unhealthy and even a normal, steady dose of it (can set up wrong expectations based on incorrect mental ideas about sex)…Which is why I’ve been reading so much about this and am gradually moving away from it, I now feel intensely attracted to my gf and don’t really feel the need to view porn (or even to masturbate that much… it’s strange but true)“Porn is virtual prostitution. You are using another woman's body to sate your lust. Many women find that very off-putting in a relationship.”Well, I view porn as a way to stimulate myself when I masturbate. I could be using my imagination to do so as well (which I do on occasion) but it takes more effort and time (and often involves not imaginary but very real people from my daily life, which makes it a bit uncomfortable for me when I meet them in person). Hence, I use porn purely as a tool to fantasize. Is it ideal? No. “Personally, I don't judge if some guy wants to use porn, but I believe you disqualify yourself from using the label "sexually conservative" to describe yourself if you do. So what if it's not an actual woman? You choose to supplement your sex life with objectifying and masturbating to womens' bodies.”I think that’s based on your (very restrictive) definition. In today’s world (after all, these classifications are all relative), not indulging in sexual activities with anyone but occasionally taking care of one’s needs (with or without porn) qualifies as being sexually conservative.“What inexperienced woman deserves a guy whose mind and penis are used to being stimulated by all this??”Isn’t that an objectification (of men)?Although I’ve always believed that I’d discontinue or reduce porn once my needs are being met by my partner (I’m already getting there), I can’t change what I’ve already done and I do believe that there may indeed be women who are put-off by this completely.Which is why I disclosed this to my gf as soon as I could (7th meeting, and 3 weeks after we first met… believe me, it was an effort to talk about this to her as I’ve never talked about this with another woman, in person, before… but I did) and guess what? She’s perfectly fine with it, and said she’s been curious enough to try out a bit of it as well. So I guess we do deserve each other :)
...............................
A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (7 March 2011):
My mind is still wrapping itself around the porn issue.
A truly sexually conservative woman would not be inclined to accept a man who is hooked on porn. Even moreso, the women that you get off of in porn movies are the opposite of sexually conservative. This means something that's bothering me.
You *use* the women you would otherwise devalue in a real life relationship. You are regularly stimulated by the actions and behaviors of sexually NON-conservative situations, yet you want a sexually conservative woman.
What chance would the sexually conservative woman have once the "newness" of your conquest wore off? Porn is oftentimes progressive like a drug. You need more and more extreme stimulation to keep up the satisfaction level. After the newness wears off, forgive me for being blunt, but do you intend to request threesomes? Anal? Folding up into a pretzel while swallowing? Spanking her while you ejaculate your name on her toenails?(okay, getting carried away :P)
Then, to keep up the stimulation, you'll be requesting and requiring things a sexually conservative woman might feel uncomfortable with? What makes you sexually conservative, the fact that you didn't use women in person?
You may compartmentalize your life to think that all of this porn you ingest is separate from real life, but many women don't see a difference. You can really hurt a sexually conservative woman by misleading her. She thinks your beliefs are in line with a monogamous, possibly biblical code of conduct, and then months, maybe years down the line, she catches you using porn. Some sexually conservative women are as devastated by that revelation as they would be if you had cheated on them. They'll wonder why you lied to them.
Men get jealous about envisioning their partners having been sexually intimate with other men in the past. Women get jealous about the other womens' bodies their parters are masturbating to while in a relationship with them.
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (7 March 2011): Dear Truelover.Thank you very much for your post. I makes me see what a wonderful thing sexual conservatism is!I think we European conservatives (and American as well?) feel very much the same way about these things as you do, but not all of us have thought it so well through as you have.I think sexual conservatism must be held within certain reasonable frames, to make that clear. Like if you find out your partner was not as virgin when you married as you thought, I would not say you should break up the marriage, that would be a promiscuous thing in itself! Marriage is marriage, whatsoever the past. And if a person deeply regrets the past, then it could and should be foregiven. And what if a woman has been raped? Then it is not at all her fault what has happened to her. And I see nothing wrong in marrying a widow, even though I suppose remarried widows to some extent might compare their lovers... So that is clear, and nobody misunderstands.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (7 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi Cindy,This is what I feel about porn (also mentioned in the same post that you referred to):"I think this is a normal thing to do. I'm aware that it is not at all fulfilling or meaningful at any level and I'm only using it as a filler / outlet (in the absence of any sexual relationship)."So I am perfectly alright with my gf watching porn and she does (mostly female oriented stuff...that was an update for me... didn't even know that a specific variety like that existed)... and if we are both OK with it, we might continue watching a bit of it later on in our relationship as well or we might not (there might be no need to)."You don't say it in so many words in today's post, so maybe I am just making up things in my mind and making the wrong assumptions.In which case,sorry my mistake."-- You are correct. Wrong assumption. I am not very religious... I don't like several aspects of it, most of them don't make sense to me (again people, this is not to judge everyone... just the way I feel)... my philosophy is to grab whatever parts of a religion appeal to me and use it (for e.g. I love the meditation, life perspective from Buddha's teachings, I like the spiritual tolerance and freedom in Hinduism (my "birth religion", so to speak), the compassion in Christianity, some ideas in Zen... and so on)...but I'm not hyper-serious about it."but also for spiritual reasons. A craving for what is pure, pristine, unsullied- and a desire to discover and explore together the mysteries of sex. So that even its darkest, messiest, dirtiest aspects become sacred through your common intimacy"-- Yeah, right there... that's precisely one of the things I don't like about religion... I do NOT think sex is dirty at all!I am perfectly aware that as sexual creatures, we have sexual urges (please read my earlier posts on how I perceive sex) and that in the absence of a relationship one can always fantasize about other people and wank off when they feel the need to (with or without porn... yes, porn-viewing has become co-opted with masturbation for many people these days).I am focusing neither on "physical integrity" (I'm like what the ?!... an intact hymen...?! what if it's broken for an entirety of reasons that have nothing to do with sex? and pray, tell me... If I have that kind of mentality, how in the world am I supposed to prove my "physical integrity"? and besides, it is possible to have oral sex/other forms of sex without impacting the hymen...you know) nor any spiritually dictated dogma.My only requirement (from my partner) in the matter is that it's alright to think (fantasize) and pleasure yourself (when you're horny and have no partner to take care of your needs)... but I draw the line there (again for myself and not for the whole wide world). As long as my partner's just not acting on those urges and doing something physical with anyone, I'm OK with it. My aim is not to control every sexual thought that my partner has, jeez... that would be so suffocating, it's just that she not act on it (and I live the same way).
...............................
A
female
reader, chigirl  +, writes (7 March 2011):
 Truelover, do not take it personal, I was saying that the view which was described was that of such things, not necessarily only from you. You did however write that one can not transition from one life style to another, thus meaning that your past as an indicator of your future behaviour. But other places where this topic has been brought up, it is a negative view on humans that is reflected, a view as such as I described.
I did not say YOU said women are used as cars. You didn't. But others act that way, others who we have debated this topic over with before. That is why some aunts brought that up, and that is where I get it from. If insisting upon women needing to be pure, or else they are broken, then that is a view that is portrayed. That does not need to be what you specifically has said here and now, but it is what is reflected in the responses of earlier questions surrounding this topic. That is why you got some responses like you did. The responses are to your question as a whole, and the problems that have arisen with it, not necessarily only to what you wrote specifically. You did ask for debate on this after all. Then allow for arguments to be brought in without taking them as a personal attack on your personal views.
What you copied in from the other thread bears no significance to what I responded here. You are questioning my sincerity, but do as you wish. I can't sit here and defend my views, they are as they are, and I never tried to point fingers either. What was said in that other thread is taken out of context by you, and I have no intention of clarifying it in here.
...............................
A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (7 March 2011):
Wait! Hold the phone here! You use porn 2-3 times per week?? Cindy, this is true? If it is, your post was outstanding.
I'm sure I'll be disagreed with, but my opinion on that matter is that porn is NOT sexually conservative. Porn is virtual prostitution. You are using another woman's body to sate your lust. Many women find that very off-putting in a relationship.
I would have a problem if someone I was seriously connected to were that addicted to porn that it had to be as or more frequent than our sex life. Make no mistake - porn is an addiction that doesn't go away with a relationship or marriage.
Personally, I don't judge if some guy wants to use porn, but I believe you disqualify yourself from using the label "sexually conservative" to describe yourself if you do. So what if it's not an actual woman? You choose to supplement your sex life with objectifying and masturbating to womens' bodies.
I've seen question after question from "inexperienced" women who have had their hearts broken by their husbands/boyfriends who either developed or continued their porn habit into their relationship.
No WAY would a frequent and habitual user of porn be considered conservative. Not with the crap there is on porn with some of the nastiest scenes these porn businesses can come up with to get men off with. Anal, pearl necklaces, threesomes, foursomes, tied up, nutting on some woman's face, and that's just the gentle stuff.
What inexperienced woman deserves a guy whose mind and penis are used to being stimulated by all this??
...............................
A
male
reader, ClearEyes +, writes (6 March 2011):
Speaking from a strictly philosophical point of view, there is a difference between sexual conservatism and sexual ignorance.
Refusing to have sex outside of marriage because it is a "sin" is ignorant. Refusing to have sex because you fear STD's or pregnancy is unreasonable; there are now contraceptive methods available even in a nation like the OP's India, that elimiante the risk of illness or pregnancy. Not having sex until you meet someone worthy IS a legit reason.
Now, for those up on their socio-sexual statistics, the OP is quite different from the rest of us, as India's sexual culture is FAR more restrained than the west or even the orient. The average age of first intercourse in India is 20, where at is is 16 in the U.S/UK, an Indian is far more likely to have rigid sexual standards because his culture demands it, its not right to jump on him for viewing our acceptance and encouragement of vulgar, whoreish behavior in a negative light. Our sexual culture is foul.
...............................
A
female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (6 March 2011):
Truelover, I am not tryng to be bitchy, but...let me say that you too seem to partake of this atmosphere of " instant gratification " which you officially disapprove.And you too seem to be intensely focused on taking care of your sexual needs- same as the next guy.
In one of your old posts "How do I find the RIGHT kind of woman ?", Dec. 10th 2009 you say that you satisfy your sexual urges by watching porn since when you were 17, and it has become a regular habit ( 2-3 times a week ).
Now, that's hardly earth shattering news , and yet... I can't help being a bit confused . Because it's not quite congruent with the general tone of your post.
You don't say it in so many words in today's post, so maybe I am just making up things in my mind and making the wrong assumptions.In which case,sorry my mistake. But somehow I had assumed that your inclination to sexual conservatism ( but is porn watching sexually conservative ? ) and your
desire for an unexperienced sexual partner would stem not only from practical reasons, like avoiding STDs, or psychological ones ( an unadventurous partner is less likely to stray ) etc., but also for spiritual reasons. A craving for what is pure, pristine ,unsullied- and a desire to discover and explore together the mysteries of sex. So that even its darkest,messiest,dirtiest aspects become sacred through your common intimacy.
So, what happens now ? If the girl you like is a horny virgin who has spent the last 10 years of her life getting off at the sight of threesomes, anal, gang bang and whatnot,is she still innocent enough for your tastes ?
Would you be disturbed by her past of habitual porn consumer- and if yes why ? since you did the same ?...
Then again, if you were not disturbed, WHY ? Are you only strictly focusing on physical integrity ( an intact hymen ) or would you also want a certain measure of moral integrity ?
...............................
A
male
reader, C. Grant  +, writes (6 March 2011):
 Thanks for your kind remarks. I was afraid that I was wandering too far off topic, as I am inclined to do.My post last night was a bit of ‘devil’s advocate’, as I’m inclined toward sexual conservatism myself, and certainly would hope my children would be as well. When I was younger I was quite unable to handle the idea of my significant other having been with someone else. My wife was a virgin, but she’d nonetheless dated, and I can recall more than one occasion finding myself obsessing about what might have gone on with the boyfriends who preceded me. Thankfully that did eventually pass, as it’s an unpleasant and unproductive way to think. But I do understand how you feel.Choosing to have only one partner during your life is reasonable and honourable. It’s a very old idea, and so has been time-tested. It’s much less complicated than how we seem to be doing things here now, as the questions on DC attest. When you’ve made a life-long commitment and you and your spouse intend to honour it, you’re liberated from the drama of relationship angst and can focus your energies more productively, such as on your children. And I do think that environment is healthier and more nurturing for the children than many of the alternative scenarios we see posted here daily. If this works out for you, then you are blessed.It would be interesting to travel in time and hear from you after 25 years in your relationship. I’ve found that things that were quite clear to me in my 20s are less so as I approach 50. However, as the advertisements here remind us, your mileage may vary.
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (6 March 2011): Great and powerful connection built by choosing to wait for the right person (anticipation's a powerful thing)How many people think they have found the right person only to find out later they were not. Should they roll over and take themselves out of commision because they got suckered in?
...............................
A
male
reader, dirtball +, writes (6 March 2011):
 Seems you sparked quite the discussion OP. Kudos. You've also gotten some excellent responses from some top aunts. It's always a good sign when you attract certain people to a thread. ;)
Anyway, you posted some things directed toward me, so I want to reply to them.
First, my counter points were for argument sake. Basically to show the flaws. Do my points have flaws too? Absolutely. The point is, that what matters is that two individuals go into the relationship with the same goals and mindset toward such things. It has to encompass more than just sexual compatability. You touched on the most important thing, and that's communication. Communication is essential to avoid the pitfalls that many people fall into. Many people don't truely understand the importance of it, and it ends up costing people their relationships.
My point about marriage and the historical perspective was less articulate than C.Grant's explanation, but that was the point I was attempting to make. However he did a much better job! Applying a moral framework from hundreds of years ago doesn't make sense in the present day. At least not to me. However if individuals wish to try for their own reasons, then more power to them. They just need to be clear about those expectations.
That said I don't think there is anything wrong with being sexually conservative, as long as the approach is open. Like I said before, and you touched on yourself, people NEED to communicate their deal breakers to each other to avoid pitfalls like RJ as well as feeling "duped" into a relationship under false pretense. I don't think it is a topic for a first date, but when a relationship starts to take a serious turn and attachment is happening, then it absolutely needs to be discussed.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionLastly, C. Grant, or CG (can I call you that?) your post was the most interesting. It made me think from a new perspective (one that's in stark contrast to what I've been socially conditioned to, in my country)... so thanks a lot for making me think and expanding my horizons!What you talk about DOES make sense in some ways...but what if you wanted only one partner your whole life? what if the thought of your partner being intimate with someone else really turned you off (I don't know about others but that's certainly the way I feel)? And no it's not an insecurity thing... (for e.g. even if I had a partner who had say, 5 sexual partners before me, and said that I was way better than any of them... a part of me would feel a little good but a part of me would feel sad... that she "rates the activity this way", this is how she perceives sex...not saying this is wrong... but this is wrong FOR me. I hope you're able to get me. 10 years (of focusing on other things like education, work, becoming independent, traveling, seeing the world) out of a 50 year sex life in order to have a great sex life with my life partner later doesn't seem too much of a "loss" to me. But then that's me... I can see why in an atmosphere of "instant gratification", and intense focus on taking care of one's needs (especially sexual) a person might not want to miss out on these 10 hormonally charged years... but then I am curious as to what appeal marriage really holds in such societies? why can't people just live-in together as long as they want to? When needs and people can change so easily, it makes sense NOT to make lifelong commitments. Please understand, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here... just genuinely curious.Btw, you wrote"Thank you, OP, for your very concise and literate expression of the issue." -- kidding, right? lol
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the question"I agree with what others have written, but especially Shawncaff phrased this in a good way (I think): "The thing I have never understood, however, is how a person can date someone for a while before getting married or getting settled into a long-term relationship without finding out about her past. If it is that important to him or her, then wouldn't that person make it his or her business to find out?"-- They might not find out:1. For the same reason that many people don't find out that they're being cheated (even though that might be important to people) -- they were deceived.2. Because they didn't ask. Like YouWish pointed out, it's important to be upfront about this (if it means so much to you). In this case, of course it's their responsibility to find out early on... if they find out later and feel bad about it then... that's too bad... it's their own doing.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi Chigirl,Firstly, you wrote:"The view that has been portrayed here, in the question specifically, is leaning towards a negative outlook on humans. Humans, or women, are prone to lie, about the sexual past, but perhaps other things as well. Man is only chasing, interested in sex, women treated like cars that are used and broken, everyone's judging the other, relationships fail because no-one accepts their partner fully, everyone's interested in pleasing their own need etc. This is in general what I summed up. Past actions indicate what a negative person you will be in the future, if the past was a negative one."Where did you get that?! Women treated like cars, CDs this is a recurring theme... where in the world did I allude to that? That is an idea that I find despicable. I've always wanted a partner, a counterpart, an equal... why in the world would I reduce her to an object?!I didn't even say that"Past actions indicate what a negative person you will be in the future, if the past was a negative one."In fact let me copy what I wrote earlier:"Past actions are an indicator and while a person CAN change for the better and leave it behind, they still have to live with the consequences... one of which might be to miss out on certain folks who have different values and wouldn't have indulged in similar behavior themselves."I have said that people can change, but some people might still not want to associate with them (for whatever reasons).And I do NOT have negative views on humanity! I seriously didn't get where you got that from. As I mentioned, very specifically, in societies, where relationships are treated casually (dump and move on), there is a strong possibility that most relationships wouldn't last long.Chigirl, I was presenting the reasons on why I (and others who are sexually conservative) might prefer this to being sexually liberal. Quite obviously, I'd have to feel this is a better choice to choose this, right? But this in no way implies that it's the best choice for everyone.There are societies that are predominantly sexually conservative (some of them willingly so... not through horrible FGM, or other forms of "enforcement") and so, yes I very much love humanity and have great faith in them, even in those people who don't agree with me and might get all riled up :) coz at the end of the day, the world might become boring if everyone was alike.On the other hand, I read your post where you talk about your approach to sexuality and relationships and indeed the world... are you serious? I don't intend to question your integrity, but this is what you wrote in another post (http://www.dearcupid.org/question/how-personal-bias-and-gender-stereotypes-can-influence.html)"History and society.. yes let me tell you a little something about the difference between men and women when it comes to sex. In history, and very much alive today, a woman is a place for a man to empty his balls. She is to give and give and get penis pushed into all of her holes without complains, never be allowed to enjoy sex herself, never allowed to ask for anything, and the man is ALWAYS on top, he decides it all. She's just his slave in bed."Now that's precisely what sounds like a very negative view of humanity (unless of course, you're saying that men are not part of humanity anymore!) Hmmm... I realized from all of this, one important thing ... that people will choose to hear and believe what they want to... even if you're trying hard not to point fingers, some of them might perceive it so and then get defensive... it's probably a limitation of this medium (posting online... threads like these get so long, take so much time to read).
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHey Anoymous123,"Being sexually conservative is a choice and a very good one at that for many people."Well please check how the sentence is worded to better understand me. It IS a choice and since no choice in this matter is perfect for everyone, it could well be a very good choice for many (I did not say most) people based on several examples I've seen."What if your "exclusive" relationship doesnt work out? You will most likely try to look for someone who's more compatible. You will eventually have sex with her. Does that make YOU immoral?"That's precisely my point. I will have sex only when I commit for life (equivalent to marriage). I don't get why you're not able to understand this IS possible. I've seen people do it all the time where I live and believe me, some of them are married 60 years and grumpy and frail but still in love with each other. I believe my partner and I can do that too. Let me try using a shared value. Say, you have a kid, you WILL take care of him/her no matter what, right? There is no chance of things NOT working out, right? (at least as long as you have that particular value)... it's the same logic applied to a life partner, once you make the commitment, there's no turning back.I've been speaking about this as a CHOICE... not as a compulsion, socially enforced rule... I stated reasons as to why someone (not everyone) might prefer this. I don't know why you had to cite some of the cruelest forms of human torture in this regard? That has nothing to do with what I wrote. Human torture and cruelty are sadly, inflicted for a variety of reasons, including, power equations, religious dogma, ethnic cleansing, controlling people and their sexuality, gender domination, even for "business purposes".
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI see that my post has riled up folks around here!If you look at the heading of my post, as well as read it carefully enough, you'd realize that while I was only painting a perspective of why someone (like me for e.g.) would think it beneficial to be sexually conservative. It in no way implies this as the only choice, nor does it exclude other choices for other people.But more and more posts of the nature, "You are imposing it on others, there's nothing good about it..." seem to suggest my posts are too long and putting people to sleep mid-way.Well, I can't help it... a verbal conversation would've been easier.Since I've got a bit of free time tonight, let me address them as best I can.YouWish, you had written:"Also, and this is my biggest problem with what you wrote. Women aren't cars. They're not CD's that you pull the shrink wrap off of. They're not factory sofas or new fishing rods or the latest model Laptop. A woman isn't "used". She's a woman. Her past is her past. It's a man's responsibility from the get go to communicate his desire for a mate who is sexually conservative. It *really* chaps my hide when a man demands a virgin yet isn't one himself."Where in my post did I write anything even remotely similar to what you describe above? I re-read my post just to be sure. Surely you are not suggesting that to have any expectations from one's partner is to objectify women and men (yeah, women have expectations from men as well, you know) and measure/evaluate them like a product?And also, I mentioned the credit rating as an example of using the past as a data point/indicator to evaluate someone. It has nothing to do with transactions. Surely, you'd agree that many people, use their "heads" (reason, logic) along with their heart (feelings) to select a mate? Are you saying people no longer think while falling in love and it's all heart?
...............................
A
female
reader, chigirl +, writes (6 March 2011):
I've come to the understanding that you can not generalize either men or women in any way. While here on dearcupid we can make our personal idea of how many men ask one question versus women, we do not have statistics on this, and certainly whatever statistics there'd be it would absolutely not be possible to generalize this as a rule for the worlds population. We're dealing here with a small number of the worlds population, and only the rich and wealthy part. That I can state since a computer and internet is needed to post a question here in the first place, and to achieve that you need wealth at a certain level, which compared to the world at wide only a smaller percentage of the population holds.In that respect, there is no way you (or I to make that clear) can make any generalizing statements. Yet, many assumptions are made with no grounds. The way the question/article was written has a negative view on the human spieces. I think it's important to point out that within this view you take certain things for granted. Such as why relationships fail in the modern world. Such as why people should or should not have sex outside of marriage, or why they do so in the first place. I will go through some of these assumptions later on.I can not argue with this logic, or give direct feedback on it, as I find myself coming from a very different view on human kind. The view that has been portrayed here, in the question specifically, is leaning towards a negative outlook on humans. Humans, or women, are prone to lie, about the sexual past, but perhaps other things as well. Man is only chasing, interested in sex, women treated like cars that are used and broken, everyone's judging the other, relationships fail because no-one accepts their partner fully, everyone's interested in pleasing their own need etc. This is in general what I summed up. Past actions indicate what a negative person you will be in the future, if the past was a negative one. Then the conservative view of sex and relationships is presented as the alter-ego, the better way to go. Which it might be for several people, but you are still operating within the same system, the same outlook on the human. I agree with what others have written, but especially Shawncaff phrased this in a good way (I think): "The thing I have never understood, however, is how a person can date someone for a while before getting married or getting settled into a long-term relationship without finding out about her past. If it is that important to him or her, then wouldn't that person make it his or her business to find out?"That pretty much sums up my answer to the question of whats wrong with being sexually conservative. There is nothing wrong with being sexually conservative. In the rest of this reply I will go more in-depth about my own thougths around the things you brought up in the question.I don't know if my view on humans is a positive one in any respect, but I want to point out how some assumptions you make come directly from your view on humans. In my view a person will never lie about their past. Why should they? I do not assume that they will lie, nor do I feel the need to dig into someones past. If I ask a question about their past, then I asked it, and too bad for me if I didn't like the answer. If something is a dealbreaker in a relationship, then these things are presented at the beginning of a relationship, and every normal person would do the same. There's no hiding or stringing along. If a topic hasn't been brought up, then I take it it was not of importance. I have never met a man with retroactive jealousy. I didn't think it could excist. Now I see it does, but I have yet to meet one. I've seen jealous people, but the overly jealous ones were always classified as not mentally well. A normal person wouldn't do such things, is how the logic goes. Women do not lie more than men to impress, in my view on humans. In my world, or outlook on the world, I have never felt pressure to lie about anything. Thus I assume, contra to your assumption, that people do not lie (you assume they do, to get what they want). In my look on it, people do not lie, because people then will never get what they truly want, not if they have to fake it and lie. By lying, they will only fool themselves, and so do themselves a misfavour. And why would anyone do that? To me, having sex before marriage or not is a non-issue. What is important is that a person is confident in themselves, and pleased with how they lead their life. A good match for any person is someone who apprechiates the same values in life, and the character of their partner. If a person values virginity, that is just as good as valuing hard work, or marriage, or family life, or working for bettering your society, or all other values one might have. If people do not match in the value specter, they will tell each other that, and move on from there. In many cases however, from personal experience, there has been a difference in values, but you make compromise. You are however always honest about your values and wants, and if there is disagreement you compromise. There is no lying, or cheating, or fooling the other. "Wanting to do all of it, and then change to a diametrically different mentality later in life in order to "settle down", is going to be very difficult."This is another point where your view on humans colour your statement. This is a non-issue in my view on humans. There is no difficulty, because there is no transition from one "life style" to another. What is judged as bad is up to the individual. Hence an outsider, or another person, can never be the judge of that. I can say I would not have chosen that life for me, or done those things. But I can not judge. However I can understand if one person feel they made bad choices, and want to do things they feel are better for them. You use sex before marriage as an example of a supposedly bad behaviour, but I'll use as example drug addiction. It is seen as bad to be an addict, but seen as good to be clean and sober (whereas sexual activity is too controversial to be used as an example). It can be a rough path to stay clean, but does not mean it is impossible, or not staying true to one self. Back to sexual activity, and your statement though: in my view on things, and humans, there is no different mind-set in going from having several partners, to having only one partner for the rest of your life. I can only speak for myself, but then at least you know there is one person out there who contradicts your ideas on humanity. There is no difficulty, or obstacle, in having sex with multiple partners, and having sex until you die with only one partner. There is no difference in that to me. And perhaps just like I have a hard time understanding why some judge this to be difficult, or impossible, I assume you will have a hard time understanding that to me at least, this is not even a question. I have never cheated in my life. But I am sexually adventurous, have had many partners too. But once with a steady partner, I am as faithful and loyal as can be. The thought of cheating never crosses my mind. There is no temptation. Why then should it be difficult? It is quite easy to stay loyal to one person, as this to me has nothing to do with how many partners one have had before, but everything to do with honesty. Honesty first and formost with yourself, second with your partner. If a committed relationship is what you truly want, then why would you feel tempted to be disloyal. However if a committed relationship is what you want, there is no problem having sex with other people that you know you will not be committed too. It isn't an either or thing. For some it is, I recond, but for some it's not. To then judge that is is difficult, purely because one self would find it difficult, is to judge others based solely on your own personal diffculties. It is not a general statement grounded in any facts on human kind. If you do so, you are extending your persona to include other individuals, not understanding that they do not think like you, because they are not you. Perhaps I should try to explain better how there is no "transition" between having had several partners and to only have one for life? It is difficult to explain it, as to you it is an either-or idea, from which you base all other assumptions, whereas to me this struggle between two forms of thinking does not excist. I will try to repeat what you said in my own words first:When a woman or man has had several parters, he or she will have to go through a transitions to modify themselves to be able to be with only one person. This transition is difficult because a person, once used to being with many, will not be able to settle with only one, but crave more. Thus this person can not remain faithul or loyal. Was that correct? The problem is not the number of partners, but the inability to remain faithful to only one? Next I will show my take on this inability:When a person is not honest with themselves about what they want, they will seek the wrong thing. When the person is not honest with themselves, they can be dishonest with their partner as well, although the main factor in this is respect. If they do not respect others, they will not respect their partner, and likely not respect themselves either, or see anything wrong in their actions. This also comes down to a different morality, of what is correct behaviour. If one person does not see the value in other humans, they will not respect other humans. This person is likely to cheat because they are self centered. It has then nothing to do with how many partners they have had sexually, but everything to do with their level of honesty, respect and morality.Thus my logic follows, that if one person is always honest, sincere, and true to themselves, their number of sexual partners has no implication on their ability to stay faithful. Thus there is no transition, because the person is still themselves, still loyal and honest. It is not a change in their nature. Them lying about other things in life, or stealing, or not respecting others around them, is a better indication on whether or not they can be loyal. I know this was hopelessly long, but I hope I showed that there are different views and takes on this problem, and that to some this isn't even a problem. It doesn't mean I don't accept that to some it is, but I hope to make you understand that you can not make a general rule that this is a problem for all humans in all societies.
...............................
A
female
reader, Anonymous 123 +, writes (6 March 2011):
 Whats wrong with being sexually conservative? Nothing. Whats wrong with experimenting sexually IF one knows what he/she is doing and can make their own choices? Also nothing."Being sexually conservative is a choice and a very good one at that for many people." Thats entirely your way of thinking OP. You cannot make a specific judgmental assumption. Sex is a physical act; I believe its what in your mind that counts. A person could have never been in a sexual relationship, yet could have the dirtiest, most cheap thought process...would you want your "true love" being like that? And when I say "you", I don't mean you in person, but anyone who's in your position.Most importantly, how do you decide when to be sexually exclusive and with whom? Does any relationship come with a guarantee? What if your "exclusive" relationship doesnt work out? You will most likely try to look for someone who's more compatible. You will eventually have sex with her. Does that make YOU immoral? "It's the kind of dishonesty where people promise to be with each other for life (marriage)..." Trust me OP, nobody gets into a relationship thinking its not going to work out. If everyone was so flippant in their thinking, DC would not have existed. People would just have moved on from one lie to another, because nobody would have taken any relationship seriously.I'm going to take this debate a little further and I would like too ask if you've ever heard of the term Female Genital Mutilation? Female genital mutilation (FGM) comprises all procedures that involve partial or total removal of the external female genitalia, or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons. FGM is in many communities believed to reduce a woman's libido, and thereby is further believed to help her resist "illicit" sexual acts. When a vaginal opening is covered or narrowed, the fear of pain of opening it, and the fear that this will be found out, is expected to further discourage "illicit" sexual intercourse among women with this type of FGM. Also, Foot binding was an ancient Chinese principle carried out again for the purpose of sexual conservatism.Sexual conservatism takes on dangerous proportions the world over. And the most problematic question is that, WHO are WE to decide about others being sexually conservative? You dont like it, fine, its your decision. Find yourself someone who has this same view point. Just like being sexually conservative doesn't make someone "good", similarly being sexually adventurous doesn't make someone "bad".People make their own choices, for their own reasons and it could go right or wrong either way.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the question'That's why I find retroactive jealousy , beside pointless, also vulgar and ungenerous'Perhaps that is the case, but I can also understand the torment someone might feel when their idea of someone they love is shredded to bits and that's why they're conflicted, they're confused as to whether to stay or leave, after all, not every has great EQ, so in their pain, they also heap a lot of it to what they believe to be the cause of this. This is probably why they don't make a "quick and clean break"Btw, Cindy, I'm thankful that I've personally not experienced any situation involving rj, or whatever new fancy term there is for it :)
...............................
A
male
reader, shawncaff +, writes (6 March 2011):
 I agree with your reasons for being sexually conservative. The thing I have never understood, however, is how a person can date someone for a while before getting married or getting settled into a long-term relationship without finding out about her past. If it is that important to him or her, then wouldn't that person make it his or her business to find out?
I know people do lie about their pasts, especially women, who feel more pressure by society to appear more chaste than they might be. But I think one can glean from conversation or knowing the person's lifestyle what they might have done.
Given that, I can imagine there do exists scenarios where a partner lied about his or her past and after a marriage reveals that instead of, say, 5 partners, he or she had upwards of 40. In this case, there is no question there would be a major issue, the most outstanding of which is that the partner lied about something which he or she knew was very important to his or her spouse. That's a real betrayal, and it's one that I cannot see anyone whitewashing with a "don't hold the past against them" mentality.
But that's an extreme case. In most cases, such facts should be unearthed before any long-term union, and it is up to both parties to make sure they know anything about their partner that is, in the words of DC's own Dirtball, a "deal-breaker" of a relationship.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi YouWish.
Other than little misconception, I think what you wrote here:
"However, he was never up front with her on that requirement. Rather, he got her heart and then decided that it was a deal-breaker"
"It's a man's responsibility from the get go to communicate his desire for a mate who is sexually conservative."
hit the nail on the head. I completely agree that you need to be upfront about this right at the beginning BEFORE you become involved because this if this is something that matters, then that person has to be the one to bring it up (although s/he'd have to bring it up in the right way, within the etiquette of "What Not To Do On a First Date" or thereabouts... like ask discreetly on the second date maybe?)
& yeah, there are men who objectify women (as I'm sure there are vice-versa, just lesser in occurrence probably). People with double-standards are one, so I agree with this as well:
"It *really* chaps my hide when a man demands a virgin yet isn't one himself."
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi Cindy,
No one is shoving down their morals down anyone's throats...
I think it is fair to think that you & your partner should share values / morals in all areas that are important to you.
Again, this is NOT about painting the other person as "lesser" but more of finding people that are suited to each other.
If it is important to you, there's nothing wrong in looking for a partner who believes in those same things.
If they don't, well it simply means that the two of you are not suited for each other. No one's lesser for it.
No one is suggesting that anyone conform to something they don't believe in. In fact, as humans, I believe that each of us NEEDS to be free to live our lives on our own terms.
That's like oxygen, so yes, each person can do whatever they please in their private lives.
"And you should try to respect their choice. "Don't judge if you don't want to be judged ".
-- This is an important point that got me thinking...
whenever we decide to do something by adopting a 'value' (like say, we decide not to settle for anything less than the best in our career or we decide to join GreenPeace & work against perceived environmental threats from large corporates... often times, we believe that it's a great / best choice for others to emulate as well... so, yeah, let's say we see someone else plodding in what we perceive to be a mediocre career... out comes the judgment in our minds (although we might not speak it, the result of the 'judgment' is evident from the people we associate with, our friends, romantic partners etc.)... So yes, most of us do judge, even if we have the decency to not speak it...
The trick is to dismiss it in our minds (like saying, hey, what the hell, it's his/her life), & not give too much importance to our own opinions on what is right & wrong for someone else... after all what do we know abt what's good for the other person?
But doing this for a person that matters to us (like a close friend, loved one, relative) is very difficult. We do judge them & usually by our standards, where we feel that what's good for us, is good for them as well... Let's say, you feel negatively about people prostituting themselves but you're still OK with keeping that to yourself & letting people do what they want as long as they don't break any laws. But the problem arises when a loved one decides to become a hooker / gigolo... you can't give them the same leeway... but even here, the best thing is to communicate & persuade... I don't believe anyone can be forced against their will & remain happy long-term. So it's their life & their call at the end of the day... the most you can do is to dissociate with them for good (might be very painful).
"That's why I find retroactive jealousy , beside pointless, also vulgar and ungenerous." Perhaps that is the case, but I can also understand the torment someone might feel when their idea of someone they love is shredded to bits & that's why they're conflicted, they're confused as to whether to stay or leave... after all, not every has great EQ... so in their pain, they also heap a lot of it to what they believe to be the cause of this. This is probably why they don't make a "quick & clean break".
Btw, Cindy, I'm thankful that I've personally not experienced any situation involving rj, or whatever new fancy term there is for it :) .
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (6 March 2011): A huge problem is the judging issue. Non-conservatives usually cannot understand any difference between rejecting someone out of incompatibility and judging them. They seem to think that either you must accept any and all possible pasts, or else you are judging people.I find this extremely ironic because the same non-conservatives usually wouldn't see a problem with rejecting someone over things that are much more petty than sexual history. For some reason it's okay to choose your dating partners by the color of their hair or their taste in shoes or their physical attractiveness, but it's not fair to make a person's sexual habits a criteria. It's absurd.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionbtw, a small note:
"sex is an expression of emotional attachment, something to be celebrated & enjoyed, so we'd love to try out new stuff... in fact give anything a try at least once" -- I meant this is how I perceive sex... not trying to define it for everyone, you know... that'd be presumptuous.
...............................
A
male
reader, truelover +, writes (6 March 2011):
truelover is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThanks for taking the time to respond, everyone.
dirtball, firstly, I neither said nor implied that the points I listed are *foolproof* guarantors for successful relationships. In fact nothing is... relationships shouldn't be taken for granted based on these or any other factors.
On the points you mentioned:
2) Sure, anyone can chance upon a great connection with someone, but the probability is higher if you are more selective & wait for it rather than jump straight into sex with them which could actually throw more confusing signals at you & your ability to decipher the connection. Also, for a person, who is used to "instant gratification", even a great connection might not mean much. So for the very fact that they've experienced different levels of it, they might devalue it.
3) There's a great difference between carefully choosing to be each other's firsts (usually when you've waited to be financially independent, are clear about what you expect from a partner, etc.) Vs. happening to be each other's firsts because you're hooking up with your first serious boyfriend / girlfriend in high school. In the former case, while not foolproof guarantor of anything, my point still stands.
4) My evidence is the widespread occurrence of cheating, reasons like "drifting apart" & subsequent failures of marriages that I've come to know about. Surely discipline / self-control has something to do with cheating, & you don't "drift apart" as well unless you take your relationship for granted (which means you didn't prioritize & work on it)
-- There are hypocrites everywhere, in every field... so what's your point? You're saying you haven't seen sexually conservative people succeed as a couple in a happy relationship?
5) This is a valid point, in that getting into a relationship without trying things out sexually is a big gamble... BUT there is a way to minimize the risk (something that I'm using myself), & that is to become very open in terms of communication with your partner as you get closer. Like my gf & I, we've reached a point where we've discussed things like how important we consider sex to be, established that both of us have compatible drives, similar mindsets (sex is an expression of emotional attachment, something to be celebrated & enjoyed, so we'd love to try out new stuff... in fact give anything a try at least once, & we share "naughty jokes" & laugh so hard). But we'd still become physically intimate only when we've decided to be together for life (as good as married). So there is a very slim chance, that despite being mentally compatible in this area, actually "doing it" might reveal certain problems... would that be a deal-breaker? not all, because we'd just work on it & fix it because we'd want to.
In fact, this has nothing to do with being sexually conservative... you can become sexually incompatible with people you were earlier compatible with (age, changing priorities, people)... you just work on it. But yes, it IS very important to be open about communicating your desires & what sex means to you because if you're not gonna do it until much later, you'd want to avoid any unpleasant surprises later (like the person might asexual, have some strange notions / fantasies, that are unacceptable to you)
"Only a hundred years ago Women in America couldn't vote, and they were pretty much the property of their husbands. The only reason those marriages didn't end is because they COULDN'T." -- I hope you are not implying that this always the case whenever there is a pattern of strong marriages / relationships succeeding. In India, for e.g. (I need to be very careful because I can't generalize about 1.17 Billion people)...let me be specific... the Indian middle-class, which is well-educated & urbanized, & ~300 Mn strong is an example of strong, loving marriages & wonderful nuclear / joint family units (families in the last 2 decades have been primarily nuclear). The women in this segment have been financially & socially independent for the last 2-3 decades & there are several instances of women walking out of bad marriages (to show that they do have that choice). So the divorce rates are increasing (but it might actually be a good thing indicating that people, women & men, are getting out of oppressive & bad marriages) but the scene overall is still great (8 out of 10 marriages are working).
It's because both the husband and the wife value each other a LOT & it would take a LOT for either to contemplate breaking the relationship (again it's the value system)
...............................
A
male
reader, C. Grant +, writes (6 March 2011):
Thank you, OP, for your very concise and literate expression of the issue. I’ve had the benefit of three wonderful answers so far as well, just so you know how I might be biased in my response.I’m going to premise my response by a bit of historical context. Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet were mid-teens, and in the year 1600 that wasn’t controversial. In a time when life expectancy was 30, marriage at 14 or 15 was the norm, and frankly necessary for the survival of the species. An expectation of virginity under those circumstances was hardly demanding – given the level of nutrition, puberty was probably coincident with betrothal and marriage. Society then wasn’t asking for much to expect that both would be virgins, as both would be barely into puberty at the time of marriage.Since then society has pushed back the age at which we expect marriage, while at the same time improved public health has pushed down the age of sexual development. The term ‘adolescence’ is relatively recent. Sexual maturity happens in the early teens, but we expect our children to delay marriage into their 20s. The ensuing gap is relatively new in our evolution as a species. So we have sexually mature people considered emotionally immature for several years. It’s hardly a surprise that that gap has been filled with sexual activity outside of the approved umbrella of marriage.Don’t get me wrong – I don’t advocate early marriage. While it can indeed work, the statistics suggest it’s not optimal. We’re now dealing with life expectancy of 70+ in many countries, even 80+ in a few. Romeo and Juliette might have looked foreward to 15 married years had they married at 15 prior to the year 1600. In 2011, 15 year-olds might have 65 years ahead of them, of which 25 or more could be child-bearing years.The issue to my mind is that we have a holdover expectation, from the 1600s or the 1800s, of human behaviour. In those days kids were married off even before their hormones kicked in. Today some expect them to remain chaste through the years when their hormones are the most active without a socially acceptable outlet.I’m all for applauding people who get things in order – getting a degree, establishing themselves in a profession, making sure their financial house is sound --- before bringing children into the world. That’s wonderful, it’s responsible. But I question applying 16th century morals to the 21st century. It’s such a different world that we need to consider different norms. If children aren’t going to marry at 15 (which, today, is abhorrent), then let’s recognize that people who choose, for their own good reasons, to wait until 25 or 30 to marry can make reasonable and responsible decisions to not be virgins.So I suppose the question is, how long is it reasonable to expect sexually mature people to withhold? Should marriage at 15 be considered? Or should people be expected (in a historically unprecedented way) to ignore their biological imperative for 10 or a dozen years until their careers are established?
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (6 March 2011): There is nothing wrong in it.
...............................
A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (6 March 2011):
Glad you got all that off of your chest.
I have nothing against sexual conservatism. I'm all for it, in fact, for all the reasons you mentioned. So I wanted to establish that before stating my opinion so you don't misunderstand me to be someone who condones lots of casual encounters and living sexually risky.
First off, your credit rating thing doesn't hold merit. Credit is an unemotional transaction. It has to do with money habits. That model just doesn't fly in a romantic setting, and here's why:
This is my issue with retroactive jealousy. A man starts dating a woman. They are attracted to each other. The relationship gets serious. Etiquette (and all of those stupid "What Not To Do On a First Date" articles all over the internet) states that a first date not be a rundown and complete sexual history.
So the attraction turns to love. Both are seriously falling for each other. Near the beginning, it was said rather vaguely by the woman that she's had a sexual past. During the initial "chase" phase, the guy is oblivious to the ramifications of that. He's in the "you're my everything" stage.
(Keep in mind, this could be reversed too, and the woman has jealousy. However, the vast majority is the man dealing with it, so there's my example)
Anyways, fast forward a little bit, and both have invested in the relationship. Both are in love, and the man is starting to be tormented by the thought of his girlfriend having been with any other guy. Doesn't matter if the guy has been with anyone else before. Next thing you know, the guy is pressing the girl to go into detail about her past. Girl makes the mistake of opening up with too much detail.
Now the guy is completely jealous. Can't stop thinking about it. Can't let it go. His view on his girlfriend/fiance/wife has changed. He views her as "tarnished". She never cheated on him. She was in love with him and had never ever betrayed him.
The problem with this is - the guy full-on chased this woman, fell in love, made promise after promise, she told him she had a past, and then all of a sudden, now it matters. It's okay to be sexually conservative. However, he was never up front with her on that requirement. Rather, he got her heart and then decided that it was a deal-breaker. Or even worse, he mercilessly hurts her emotionally because of it.
I have a massive problem with R. jealousy. For the woman, it's a bait and switch. For the guy, the older he gets, the more possible that he's had a past. Not to mention, I see it so many times that he becomes retroactively jealous AFTER the two start a sexual relationship. I mean, what???
Also, and this is my biggest problem with what you wrote. Women aren't cars. They're not CD's that you pull the shrink wrap off of. They're not factory sofas or new fishing rods or the latest model Laptop. A woman isn't "used". She's a woman. Her past is her past. It's a man's responsibility from the get go to communicate his desire for a mate who is sexually conservative. It *really* chaps my hide when a man demands a virgin yet isn't one himself.
There's nothing wrong with sexual conservatism. There's everything wrong with retroactive jealousy, because unless the girl lied about her past, you knew what you were getting into, and if she hadn't talked about her past, then it's your responsibility to say that you want someone who is sexually conservative and has followed that code. And say that before you get serious with her, for God sake. To call her "cheap" because of R. jealousy after she's given her heart to you is betrayal of the worst kind.
...............................
A
female
reader, Purple spotted lizard  +, writes (6 March 2011):
I have a short-temper and get bored easly. I couldn't read it all. You should try and make it shorter so other people can be bothered to read it all the way through. °_°
...............................
A
female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (6 March 2011):
Of course you are perfectly entitled to have your own standards and expectations about anything.
You are just not entitled to shove them down the throat of people who have different values, and to make your partner miserable with rejection/coldness/criticism.
Life, at the end, is very simple, it's about making a choice and sticking to it.
You don't approve of promiscuous girls and put a high value on virginity ? Perfect. Don't date promiscuous girls, only virgins. And if unluckily, you find out LATER your partner had a turbulent past ? ... If it is an issue for you , dump her. Immediately.
There is no point in spitting in the plate where you eat.
That's why I find retroactive jealousy , beside pointless, also vulgar and ungenerous. ( I am not saying this is your case ,obviously, I am talking in general ).
People who is obsessing about their partner's sexual past while sharing the present are a case of I want to keep my cake and eat it too. They get to be with the person they have desired and chosen, while all the time disparaging her/him and feeling , secretly or overtly, smug and superior and "better" from the top of their moral high horse.
You ( always a generic you ) chose to be sexually conservative ? Fine, I respect that . Like you say, there are many reasons why a person chooses to be sexually conservative .
There are also reasons why a person instead chooses to be sexually liberal, adventurous and explorative. And you should try to respect their choice. "Don't judge if you don't want to be judged ".
Live your sex life as your values and conscience dictates you- and let other people live theirs according to their values and conscience.
...............................
A
male
reader, dirtball +, writes (6 March 2011):
In my opinion there is nothing wrong with either choice. It's up to individuals to decide what is right for them. What is not right in my opinion is imposing your moral structure on someone else, or making them feel bad or dirty for the choices they've made.
However, I also don't believe it's proper to enter into a relationship under false pretense. If you know your partner has strong feelings toward monogomy and is saving themself for "the one" then that should be respected, and it should be up to that person to decide if they still want to be with you knowing you have made different choices in your life. Then indeed, they need to suck it up if they love the person, because a person is shaped by their life experiences.
The crux of your argument is that someone who is waiting is somehow "fooled" into loving someone because they did not disclose their past. I personally believe that the past is relevent only in that it shapes the individual into who they are, but I'm also not a "wait for the one" type.
For argument sake, I'll post some counter points to your numbered items.
1) I'll conceed the baggage point, but just because there is no baggage, doesn't mean there won't still be problems.
2) This connection can be had by anybody. I know plenty of people who have found an overwhelmingly powerful connection to someone who was not their first partner. In fact I'd argue that they know better what that connection is because they've experienced different levels of it.
3) If that were true we'd all still be with our firsts. It's true that can happen, but giving each other your virginity is hardly a cementing part of a relationship. It has more to do with the morality surrounding the wait than the actual act taking place.
4) Where is your evidence? Again, I've seen plenty of examples of people who did not wait and still work hard on their relationships. Waiting is usually done for moral or religious reasons. However I've seen plenty of people who preach those morals lead morally corrupt lives. Preaching the sanctity of marriage while having multiple affairs.
I'll also add one more point.
5) If you wait, you will not know if you are sexually compatable because neither of you truely know about your sexuality. Sex is important to a relationship. More so than many people care to admit. What if you wait for that one, only to find you two share nothing in common when it comes to what you like sexually? What then? Stick it out and be miserable?
Your post has merit. We do often tell people to leave their relationship here on DC. This is because many people come here when their relationship is beyond repair, or parties involved aren't willing to put in the effort. It shows by what they post. It's a shame that so many relationships end now, but I think this is more a sign of many cultures placing an importance on individual rights. Only a hundred years ago Women in America couldn't vote, and they were pretty much the property of their husbands. The only reason those marriages didn't end is because they COULDN'T.
...............................
|
