A
male
age
41-50,
*elpPlease79
writes:My wife and I have been together for 17 years, married for 12. We're still young-ish in our 30s because we met young. We've had a great marriage overall and have a relationship that was genuingely best friends first, then it became romantic. She pursued me at the time, despite warnings from her friends and family that I was no good (they were right), and she has genuinely made my life great and changed me for the better.So not that long ago I found out that my wife was flirting with other men. It led to arguing and I think it took a lot for us to get past it. I felt somewhat betrayed. I also felt like an idiot because in one case I was hanging out with a guy at a party who moments before had been chatting her up in the corner of another room while resting his hands on her thigh, fully expecting to get laid. It kills me that there are men in our circle who will talk to me one minute and the next are trying to get her alone. What saved us I think was her honesty about the situation and her being remorseful. She has argued that we had always agreed that flirting with others is okay. I disagree and I know she doesn't feel this way because she has always been the jealous one though I've never done anything like this nor have I been tempted.So I thought all was well after our fighting and what not had died down and things got back to normal. So 3 nights ago she tells me that she wants permission to flirt. Which has me floored. Her argument is that the problem before is she wasn't open with me about what her intentions were, they weren't bad, but it led me to being hurt, so now she wants it to be an agreement between us. She has even proposed some boundaries for her to follow in terms of what's okay and what's not when this goes on. She wants me to agree and not to become upset or step in if she's not breaking these boundaries.So she went to a party on Saturday night and did nothing. She is still awaiting my answer she says and I guess that's why I'm on here. She will be going to parties several times a week for the rest of the year given the season. I will be at some but not others. So I'm actually considering saying yes to this believe it or not. But I have a ton of reservations and insecurities. I trust her but I don't necessarily trust those men. I think for her this is a way to have a really intense conversation with another man, as she describes it, which by her rules he would be able to say what he wants and do this and that within limits. I think for them it's a chance to sleep with her, which more than a few men have tried over the years. But I also feel like saying no doesn't fix anything and would just push it back underground somehow, if that makes sense? So am I insane for considering saying yes? What if I limit it quite a bit, she wants suggestions from me for what I could put up with and what I can't? What is even going on here after all this time together? Thank you.
View related questions:
best friend, flirt, jealous Reply to this Question
Share |
Fancy yourself as an agony aunt? Add your answer to this question! A
male
reader, Bridge  +, writes (12 December 2017):
To bridge the gap, I suggest that when you are not present, no touching is allowed, no kissing, no sitting on knees, but that in your presence she has more freedom, perhaps hugs and holding hands.
So to get that freedom she will prefer you to be with her.
A
male
reader, Kinggeorge +, writes (15 December 2015):
Open your eyes. What she wants is a one way marriage. I can go out and fuck but you can't. You will be in torment for the rest of your life. Your marriage is over. I suggest you get her cards and take your name off of them. Get your finances in order and contact a lawyer. I don't mean to be rude but you are a fool if you think this will work. She wants another man. That means you are her financer at best. She turned into someone you don't know and don't want. End it, collect info and display it to your attorney. Good luck buddy. I'm sorry for you.
...............................
A
male
reader, HelpPlease79 +, writes (11 December 2014):
HelpPlease79 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOkay I just stopped in to thank everyone who answered my post. It was nice of people to take the time. I guess those of you who said she would try to take this further were right. I finally spoke with her at length about it last night. I asked her what she wanted from all this, what her intentions were. She eventually, after a lot of talk and some strange looks on her face, admitted that she would like to be able to sleep with other men. She's been pursued by various men for a while now, she didn't have much experience before meeting me, and she wants us to consider an open marriage.I wasn't surprised because of what people had said on here but it was a really weird experience to hear her ask for it. It was like I was speaking to someone who I used to know but who had changed a lot over time, someone I knew and yet didn't. It's hard to explain and even harder to write about this. I asked her if she knew anyone she wanted to be with. She had a look like she had someone in mind, but she wouldn't say who. I can't prove that of course, but I had a strong impression that there is someone or several someones she'd like to go to bed with. I asked her if she realized that I would also be seeing other people if we went through with this. She looked at me funny and I could see she was kind of turning the wheels upstairs so to speak. She said she realized I could but that I should really think about whether I should do that, that I'm not the kind of person who would want that. Well she's right I'm not, that kind of thing isn't for me. I don't know what to do about things and we kind of left everything hanging last night. No final answer on whether this was truly what she wanted. I mean I know she wants it, that much was obvious from her expressions, like she was asking me for something expensive that she knew I didn't have the money for, same look she gets then.I guess it's good to know what she had in mind all along, rather than watching her do something short of that for a long while, thinking it was over and wouldn't get worse, and then being surprised when she'd asked me for an open marriage a year down the road, or a few months I guess.Not sure what to do. I don't really want to go through with this but I'm also not wanting to end things with us. I guess I still worry that whether I say yes or no, she'll still do what she wants. But anyway thanks again to everyone here who answered, even those who called me a bad husband or implied it. I think I've been pretty good and she agrees, but she really wants the old me and to maybe become like the old me herself, from what she tells me.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (10 December 2014): No... do not give her permission.... she is way out of line to ask you... I agree with others here that she is most likely trying to do more than just flirt... .. tell your wife you cant allow this... tell her you love her and she should only want you to flirt with her and touch her... if she truly loves you .. she wont go out and do that with other men .. I hope you can work it out.. I wish you the best....
...............................
A
female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (10 December 2014):
 HOLD ON... if a man put his hand on my breast after I slapped him, my husband would probably deck him.
TOUCHING breasts, or butts or sitting on laps or KISSING is NOT flirting. IF she has you convinced that she is just flirting then you are one cuckold husband and need to GROW a pair or get a divorce.
She is not flirting. she is setting up situations where she can be intimate with other men with your permission so that she's not cheating.
She's playing you.....
...............................
A
female
reader, Anonymous 123  +, writes (10 December 2014):
 OP you realize something here, right? Even if you DO refuse, you know that this is something that she wants and will perhaps get out and just do it. Even if she doesn't, there's always going to be a nagging feeling within you and do you really think you can be at peace? Its like refusing a boyfriend when he asks for a threesome. I might just say NO straightaway but in my heart I know that's what he wants and I will always be suspicious of him and once that dynamic changes, things will never be the same again.
OP now that she has put this across the table, you know that this is what she wants. She wants to flirt with other guys and for them to touch her. Obviously her hands wont be limp on her sides; she will touch them too. Where then will be the boundaries? As her husband, can you even imagine that? And I can bet my bottom dollar on the fact that she will want an open marriage very soon when the flirting gets hard to resist.
See you've said it yourself OP that she's happy in her marriage so she doesn't want to leave you. She just wants a bit of fun on the side and that's what she's doing. she's slowly initiating you into the world of an open marriage and she thinks there's nothing wrong with what she wants hence she says that counselling is not needed because she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. People who seek open marriages are not "wrong" per se; that's what they choose to do and they don't see anything wrong in that.
OP you need to sit her down and talk to her. Her demands are not normal or rational. She wants something that really no one would accept and she expects you to give her a nod for it so that she doesn't feel guilty. Why else would she ask for permission? Its complicated OP, you really need to clear things out with her because an open marriage is not very far away.
...............................
A
male
reader, Sageoldguy1465 +, writes (9 December 2014):
 "Permission to flirt" is a little like "permission to have sex - without birth control - and expecting that... if she REALLY DOESN'T WANT TO... she won't get knocked up....
YOU have to make this decision.... (because she won't)...
Either: You turn in your genitals at the door, and acquiesce (go along with it), OR,
you tell her that flirting does NOT fit in to your vision of your's and her "relationship" (marriage)... so, she does it at her OWN risk. The "risk" being that you will send her sorry a$$ out in to the street because she is (really) a cheating strumpet.....
Simple, no?
Good luck...
...............................
A
female
reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (9 December 2014):
 You ask if there is no way this can work and in my opinion that's just it, there IS no way this can work, not without you getting hurt or embarrassed by her behavior. Even though she claims otherwise, I think your wife has left your marriage emotionally.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (9 December 2014): I've read all the responses. No one, myself included, is bashing you. No one has even implied that you're bad guy.
You are apparently quite confused about the boundaries of marriage and commitment. She is pushing the envelope and playing you for a sucker. Apparently, she has changed.
Right now, you're just a bit overwhelmed. This has drawn some very emotionally-charged responses from aunts and uncles. It is to convince you that your gut-felt reaction to her request is right-on target. No one is against you, we are concerned for your feelings and the outcome of your marriage. I can say for myself, I am.
...............................
A
female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (9 December 2014):
 I agree with SVC
There is flirting and then there are SEXUAL advances. Such as groping her butt, boobs, thigh, whatnot.
My question to you, OP, is this... Would she be OK for you to do the same?
And have you asked why this has come about?
...............................
A
male
reader, HelpPlease79 +, writes (9 December 2014):
HelpPlease79 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOkay since people are still asking, yes she wants touch to be part of what she is allowed to do with them. She more specifically wants to be able to draw the line herself as to what is okay and what isn't. So for example, if I had seen her friend's husband put his hands on her breasts while we were at another couple's home, I would have stepped in. In that case she ended it as soon as he did that and kissed her. But she wants an agreement that she gets to make that decision, not me, I'm supposed to agree to stay out of it. So on the other hand, when other guys have rested their hands on her leg or thigh when chatting on the couch, or on her rear end when dancing, etc she thinks that's fine and doesn't want any rule against it. So people see this as a slide toward and open marriage? I think that was my main worry when I asked, that this was just the beginning of what she and they would want and not the end of it. If she could promise to me that this would be the limit of what went on I honestly would probably do it just to keep an eye on things and be aware. But if it means next month she'll want to do more, or let them do more, then that would probably end things for me.Some of you think this means my marriage is bad. I don't know why, she always seems happy and says I'm exactly what she wants. She complains when I'm not around. Those who say I'm a bad person don't know me, it's different when you're a bad teen like when we met. I'm surprised it's hard for people to give advice on this without bashing me, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.But others here have been great so I do appreciate it. I realize that this could end in me getting hurt. Is there no way for this to work? I don't want it to happen, but I want some control over things and if this gives that or could, I want it to happen for that reason. Her friends are not the best to me so they won't watch out for us or our marriage if something went wrong. I want it all out in the open even if it's embarrassing to be at a party where my wife is in the corner with some jerk. But I don't know what else to do, she says counseling is not needed. She's very happy with me, with our marriage, and wants more I guess. I don't really get it.
...............................
A
female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (9 December 2014):
I am married. I am an outrageous flirt. I am what friends call "a natural flirt"
When we first got serious I asked him about how my flirting affected him and if he wanted me to stop. and he laughed and said "you flirt like you breathe, I could never ask you to stop!" he was amused.
Now our background is that I was married to another when I met him and I was in an "alternative marriage" so I had permission and knowledge from my then husband to carry on.
I still flirt. BUT flirting is not touching. Flirting is not giving a guy any hope at all that he's getting anything but a quick ego stroke in the elevator or something.
ANYONE I flirt with who does not know I am married will get the very first innuendo of theirs shot down with "yeah my husband said that just this morning to me"
Because my flirting is not to stroke my ego or make me feel wanted or desired or excited which is what i think your wife's flirting is about.
I would never DREAM of "asking permission" that implies I do what I do with forethought and effort. I can't get permission for something that comes naturally.
Permission to flirt will lead to permission to date requests and then permission to open the marital bed to others....
your gut says NO for a reason. trust it.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (9 December 2014): After further consideration, I have to say...
She seems shallow and insecure, and in need of an ego boost. She should be seeking that from YOU.
If you compliment her and flirt with her, and act affectionate than that is ALL she should need.
Don't cater to her juvenile desires for male attention. It's time to play hardball.
I'd give her an ultimatum if I were you.
Tell her if she wants to go on "flirting" than the marriage is over, and leave her shallow butt.
If she wants to be your wife than, well she's YOUR WIFE, and the only man she should be flirting with and being touched by is you. PERIOD.
...............................
A
female
reader, Anonymous 123 +, writes (9 December 2014):
I'm late to the party but I'll pitch in as well.
OP when you say that she needs permission to flirt, what exactly does that mean? Its clearly not just verbal flirting if the guy's laying his hands on her thighs which means that it has already crossed the line to physical. Assuming you do allow her to flirt, what will the boundaries be? What exactly does she want to do? Get touchy-feely? Will the guy touch her in places where he shouldn't? Because OP, mind you, there is no such thing as casual flirting because invariably the guy will want more.
Before you realize, you'll be waking up to an open marriage and your wife will be having the best of both worlds because in her defense, she's already told you what she wants so you cant blame her.
Think long and hard about this one OP. The fact that she wants to flirt means that she's not entirely happy in the marriage and wants to "explore" possibly because she feels you got married too early and she wants to see what else is out there.
I would strongly suggest marriage counselling because this is headed into dangerous territory.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (9 December 2014): My good fellow, you say your wife wants to set the terms of touching, and you to modify it? Innocent flirtation requires no touching at all. It's a passing smile, or a wink. Nothing intimate, and no physical contact whatsoever.
Some random guy touching the thighs and breasts of a married-woman, is far beyond respectful limits; even for a woman who has a boyfriend. Try it on someone's wife or girlfriend you know, and most guys will knock you out! If she herself doesn't slap you silly! If you say she'll do it anyway; then why is she asking for permission? She doesn't want, nor need your permission.It's an insult to your intelligence, or a stab at your manhood. Take your pick!
She's either trying to make you jealous, you're too intimidated by other men; or you fear she's leaving you, and you're trying to satisfy her crazy request out of shear desperation. If you've changed, does your guilt runs so deep that you're being an emotional martyr to this psychological-abuse and manipulation? The final outcome of this is not good.
You say she wants no sex? Flirtation is a prelude to sex, especially if touching is involved. Not one thing you've said about this makes any sense.
I think you know there are underlying problems between you and your wife, and you're in denial. You don't want her to come out and tell you what the real problems are. Instead; you'll consider letting her emasculate you. Some guys go to unbelievable lengths to avoid open discussions with their mates about problems in their relationships. You don't think there is anything wrong with this? Your wife goes cockeyed, and asks for permission to get felt up and groped? This is disrespectful and calloused to your feelings. Word will spread about her like wildfire, and you'll look like a fool. If you think men will respect her as a woman and as your wife, you're grossly mistaken. They will mock you as a man. Why not consider swinging, if you're going to go alternative? Perhaps that is her goal.
You're opening a Pandora's Box, and it is only a matter of time that she'll be having a full-fledged affair. If you ask any of your married male friends if they'd allow men to flirt with and touch their wives, what kind of answer do you think you'd get?
You don't want to be told that you're deficient in some area in your marriage; so you're considering allowing your wife to technically cheat on you. If you don't feel good about it, it is because it is one of the most outrageous things any married person should ask of their spouse.
I don't know what the anonymous female was talking about.
If a married-woman has an emotional need to feel attractive, that's her husband's job. If he fails at it; you either let him know in no uncertain terms; or divorce him if he's too stupid to realize when you're unhappy and why.
...............................
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (9 December 2014): Flirting is like men's porn now?
Okay. But then men also get to openly hit on other women too.
Its a bullshit double standard to pretend that women "flirting with" other men is not the same thing as men "hitting on" other women.
...............................
A
male
reader, lifesgreat +, writes (9 December 2014):
no mate .
you are just setting yourself up to get hurt . Not saying she will cheat but you will be pissed off to know blokes are flirting with your wife and she likes it.
Also then you will begin to be wound up at yourself for actually giving her permission .
She will become known as a flirt and also that means more blokes will try it with her.
whats the point of being married if she wants to flirt with other people ?
also you say she has made you a better person ... ?
so why should you let her get her little kick .. you have changed for the better .
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (9 December 2014): Absolutely not, i cant even believe she asked you this question. And what was that man doing with his hand on her hip?? Why she let him?
Unfortunately all my husband' s friends were hitting on me which gave me the exact value of their friendship. But I didnt let anyone touch me and I never flirted with anyone.
I am surprised your wife doesn't know the value of these flirting at her age. Of course men will flirt if they have the tiniest impression that they can get laid. And especially a married woman is a find. It's free, effortless and no obligations.
She thinks they flirt with her because they are so fascinated with her but the fact is they are just looking for a new lay.
If I were youi would stop this nonsense immediately.
...............................
A
male
reader, HelpPlease79 +, writes (9 December 2014):
HelpPlease79 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOkay thank you for your answers. I've been having a hard time with this. I want to address some of what was written or asked.
Xearo--I'm not wild about the idea of her flirting, but I feel like I should try to accomodate her. But I'm also terrified that I'd just be opening a can of worms, starting something that could spin out of control on us. In terms of the other men making moves, they seem to do this anyway or some of them do. So she wants it all out in the open I guess. One issue for me is I'm having a difficult time knowing how I'd even react in this situation. She wants me to know what's going on and not step in, which makes it more difficult. So I want her to be happy and don't think I can control her, but I also am uncomfortable with the idea of her doing this.
anonymous female reader--So you see this as a legit female need? I hadn't thought of it that way, but it does help me see it as something that she wants naturally I suppose. I don't quite get the connection to porn you mention though. How is this like porn viewing by men? My wife views porn anyway so she gets something from that as well. But to address what you wrote, why do women need flirtation with men? Why be with me but also want those others?
jls022--You asked for more information about what she wants to happen. She's proposed some boundaries but wants me to suggest modifying them, which I don't even know what to do. She wants to be able to talk in a flirting way with them and for them to be able to say what they want to her. This is the most important thing to her, she wants some kind of intensity between them in conversation that she says exists when men and women talk this way.
She wants to be the one to set the limits on how they touch her, so when a guy put his hand on her leg at one party, she was fine with that and so it went on, while I never knew. She wants that if I see that, I let it go and don't step in. On the other hand, in one situation a guy touched her breast while trying to kiss her, so she ended that sit down with him. Her point I guess is she wants to determine what's okay touching and what's not on her own. So yes it definitely goes beyond flirting in a few words with a cashier.
She wants no sex or anything like that, which I worry could be wishful thinking based on what's happened before, one man at least really seemed to want to get her in bed, her friend's s.o.
Overall she sees it as a chance to be very intensely involved in conversation with a man she's attracted to, with a moment between just them, without worrying that I'm going to cause a scene or become upset later with her. There is some feeling she gets in these conversations that she wants to have, but with no chance of anything beyond that.
I worry about it, but I guess if she wanted to cheat she just would. I like that she's been honest, but I worry she's asking a lot and isn't entirely aware of what these guys want, or thinks she can control it anyway.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (9 December 2014): Have you ever considered apart from all the things mentioned by other 'aunts', that your wife could be jealous herself? I mean come on...why does she want you to KNOW explicitly what she's up to and GIVE PERMISSION? really? I don't buy that as just a simple permission. It's probably a revenge of jealousy disguised as 'permission talk'. It's sometimes crazy how women can think twisted and being a woman I can say that i agree with wiseowlE.
Maybe you had done something that still makes her jealous. or maybe she's not happy enough and wants to SHOW you that you have to buck up or she'll seek it from other men, or maybe she has a case of severe jealousy and feels the need to make you jealous.
This whole business of flirting and asking permission seems to be more about 'making you jealous'. A person who really wants to flirt would do it anyway, without permission. If they are caught, they can always lie or act innocent, "oh I was just being friendly.' or 'he took it the wrong way'.
I suggest you go to a psychologist or marriage counselor to figure out the root issues rather than breaking your head about saying 'yes' or 'no' to a question that is wrong in the first place.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (9 December 2014): I think it is a bad idea to give her permission to "flirt". I am saying this because I know of two couples whose marriages were absolutely destroyed by such agreements.
Even if your wife will "limit" her flirting to the boundaries you set, there will likely still be men who take it wrong, and/or think you have an open marriage or something like that and try to seduce her anyways.
It's also a dangerous game for your wife to be playing.
Also, she's not being fair to you at all in this regard.
...............................
A
female
reader, jls022 +, writes (8 December 2014):
What does she mean by flirting exactly? I can be a bit of a flirt at times with others, but I'm talking about a throwaway comment to a cashier to make his day or something equally innocent. It sounds as though your wife wants to do a lot more than that, and based on the limited information you have given, it sounds like you are well within your rights to say no to this. She should never be getting herself into any situations in which other men believe she wants to sleep with them - it's not fair to you, them or your marriage. As I say, more information on the types of things she does will be helpful here though.
...............................
A
reader, anonymous, writes (8 December 2014): Married people aren't supposed to be flirting with other people. If your wife feels the need to get attention from other men, there is a deeper problem beneath such a crazy request. She is telling you there is a deficiency in your marriage; so she'd rather get it from another man.
Flirting leads to hookups. You made vows to be true to each either and forsake all others. She is not going to stop at flirting; and men don't like to be lead on and teased. The very same men who flirt with her, will have gross disrespect for you as her husband; and they'll figure you aren't taking care of your wife in the bedroom.
Why would any woman request such a thing of her husband?
I guarantee if you give her permission; she will find your replacement. I also guarantee if you flirted with other women, she will use that as an excuse to get back at you.
I suspect your wife isn't happy in her marriage anymore.
There was a question from another OP asking if you can change a bad-boy? You said she changed you. No she didn't. You change yourself. It was because you wanted to change. If she is asking for your permission to flirt with other men; perhaps you haven't changed as much as you should have.
...............................
A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (8 December 2014): To me this is the male equivalent of men with their porn
Just as many men claim that they have a need to jerk off to attractive young naked women , women also have an emotional need to be found attractive by many men and flirting can help achieve this
As men say , she's not touching anyone
If you use porn at all, whether secretly or with her knowledge , I do g thing you can legitimately deny her this female need
...............................
A
male
reader, Xearo  +, writes (8 December 2014):
Flirting is a lesser of the evils but the way I see it, it is still an evil. Flirting would be ok if both are ok with it. Clearly you are not ok with it so I am dumbfounded on why a partner would even want to continue to bring it up. What is the issue here? Just because she asks for permission she expects you to say yes? If you aren't ok with it then just say so. Marriage is about you both being happy not just one person. Why does she have to do something that hurts you? I'm am happy she has been a blessing to your life but why do you want to throw it away now?
And you are right, you can trust your wife but you can't trust those other guys. And then what? All the guys will eventually realize your wife needs attention and they can just make moves on her anytime they feel like. I have no idea what good can possibly come out of this.
...............................
|
