A
male
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes:I am 35 and my wife is 34, and she has had sex with 11 men in her life including me. That might not sound like a massive number of partners relative to her age, but the other 10 guys were all between the ages of 15-19. From 19-30 she was with one boyfriend, before meeting me.She's only just admitted this to me so it feels like it's happening in the present, before anyone makes the oh so unhelpful suggestion that I leave the past in the past. This is really upsetting me. I've lived in the world and remember from my own youth girls who'd bedded 50 guys by the time they hit 20, but that's so far off the scale you have to just concluded there's something wrong with them.10 guys by the tender age of 19 still seems an awfully high number to me. Is this normal behaviour for a woman?? Reply to this Question
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female
reader, Tisha-1  +, writes (25 May 2012):
 So, to sum up, you're angry with your wife because she had sex with guys in her youth, and you can't find any brothels for women? But you're fine with yourself because you had sex with girls in your youth and there are brothels for men? Is that about right?
Oh, my goodness. Off you go to that CBT. Sooner, not later. You need it. Good luck!
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (24 May 2012): Hi Chigirl, OP here.Thanks for your in-depth replies, I do appreciate them and am sorry if I've hit what seems to be a raw nerve for you. You are right, I as an individual have never had a problem in principle with casual sex. I've have my fair share of it - exactly the same body count as my wife as it happens - although starting at a much later age than her (22 losing my V). What's happened recently, to my shock, is that I have suddenly become much more conservative in outlook as a result of falling in love. There have been times when I've had what felt like very deep revelations that sex is meant for two people who are in love and that's it, full stop. A far cry from my former uninhibited "sex is a natural way for two people, even if complete strangers, to react to each other" mentality I adopted during the first 30 years of my life. I know it's hypocritical that I'm now dragging my wife over the coals for her lack of restraint in the past, whereas my prior conquests don't bother me at all; I was young, horny and the opportunity presented itself, no further explanation required. I was commitment phobic before I got with my wife. I had sex when the opportunity presented itself and was never judgemental of the ladies in question because, frankly, they didn't stir deep enough emotions in me to make me care or even give the slightest thought about what they'd done previously, or how they as individuals viewed sex. With my wife, I care to the point of obsession; not a good thing, I know. It annoys me that she seems more like a guy than a girl in her philosophy of sex, and I say that because with one, possibly two exceptions before her, I was always left with a feeling of guilt after casual sex. The guilt was due to the fact that the girls in question - some of whom were members of the 50+ club in terms of partner numbers - all seemed to want that first casual encounter to lead to a boyfriend/girlfirend relationship, which at that point in my life I wasn't able to provide, for various reasons. Beacuse of these experiences, I came to accept as true the stereotype that women cannot handle sex without commitment, which is why I find my wife's blase attitude so strange.No man on earth has ever inhabited a female body, nor vice versa. Misunderstanding breeds suspicion and fear, which in turn breeds hatred. Ultimately, we cannot relate to each other at all, apart from by sharing anecdotes and personal experiences in conversation or on a forum like this. And yet we need to understand each other, for the good of humanity as a whole, if only to banish from the world hideous injusticies such as those mentioned by CindyCares about the plight of women in "conservative, male dominated societies".From the viewpoint of mutual understanding, while I find your posts inspiring, I cannot help but disagree with your central theory that male and female sexuality are the same. If they were, every major city throughout the developed world would have brothels staffed by men for a female clientelle. The fact that such brothels don't exist has nothing to do with "society's teachings", as quite obviously criminals (such as brothel owners), by definition, live outside society and only care about making money for themselves. The reason such establishments don't exist is because, as a business venture, they would fail due to sheer lack of customer interest. "Women don't need to pay for sex, they can get it anytime and anywhere they want", I hear in reply. Now why do you suppose that is, I wonder...
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male
reader, JustHelpinAgain  +, writes (24 May 2012):
No its not that men can't accept that women enjoy sex, its great when they can. What is hard to accept is when the woman you love needs to unburden her secret regrets and guilt. Then its hard to accept that she was probably treated as dirt by worthless guys. This seriously affects the womans self confidence and ability to enjoy sex.OP, don't get hung up over this, your wife was but a child and probably had self-esteem and bad boyfriend issues. She may have had sex once with each of ten guys which will leave her with little good experience, she may have been drunk, persuaded, etc etc. If you don't want to discuss the past then tell her, just remember that whatever her ride through life was before she met you she was able to see the good in you and love you.
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female
reader, chigirl  +, writes (22 May 2012):
 ""Part of what is hurting you is the same thing that hurts me, she gave something so special away so cheaply to guys that took advantage of her""
This is why it is so hard for you to imagine a woman having an interest in sex. A woman enjoying sex is judged. She is seen as a whore, a slut, or someone who "gave away something special".
I will have to ask you what it is that is SO special that a woman gives away when she has sex? And, what is this that men do NOT have to give away? You speak of men wanting sex more often, and this is a very commonly accepted idea. Men want sex. It is accepted by society that men want sex. But does this idea alone mean that when a man has sex with a woman HE isn't giving away anything special at all?
This is where you see social teachings very clearly. A man having sex GETS something. A woman having sex GIVES something. But what? What it given, and what is taken? Aren't the both of them giving and taking just the same? A woman who wants sex, and a man who wants sex... is there really a give and take there? Is there really a winner and a loser?
The social teachings is what makes you judge your wife for having had casual sex. I don't think YOU as a person actually have a problem with this. The problem is that your wife's sexual openness is contradicting the stereotype you have been all too familiar with since growing up. But this contradiction does not mean that your wife is abnormal, or that she was a slut, or that she "gave away" something special. Take away that old wrapping and see this in a new light.
Your wife's sexuality belongs to HER. She didn't give anything away when having sex. She enjoyed herself. She took charge of her own pleasure, and she was brave enough to go against the mainstream and stereotype and say "I actually enjoy sex and want it too". Few women dare do that. But I promise you, men and women want sex just the same. The ONLY difference is that women are being taught to NOT show an interest in sex, because if they do they will be judged and looked down upon.
You wife gave that standard the finger and went ahead and did what she wanted to do anyway. Was it smart? Maybe not. But it's no different from what any man would do. I've met veeeery few men who would pass up on sex, by any woman, if offered. And that to me is a lot more "slutty" than someone who every now and then has casual sex, but doesn't sleep with everyone who offers.
In fact, if your wife was like any other teenage boy she's probably have slept with 10 times as many people, because what teenage boy would pass up on sex when offered? And given the number of offers your wife must have gotten, I bet you there are MANY she turned down.
So she slept around. What teenage boy hasn't, if given the chance? And, if you see the sexuality of a woman as the same as that of a man (and it is the same) then this looks very different. For example, may I ask, how many casual sex-partners have you had yourself? And how are your sexual encounters different from hers?
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (21 May 2012):
 OP, you'd make the day of any Cognitive Behavioural therapist, because you are a textbook exemple of suffering caused by skewed perceptions / unsubstantiated assumptions.
Basically, you love your wife, and you love her the way she is, including her weaknesses and imperfections, therefore including having adopted behaviours than you don't agree with. So far so good. What really bothers you, though, is the thought that she may be " weird " " abnormal " " strange "... because , in your assumptions,if a relationship is not available , all women would ( should ? ) UNANIMOUSLY prefer celibacy to casual encounters.
OP, where did you get that from ?! That could be true if all women had the same background, religion, personality, values , social and family influences, and, let's not forget, sex drive. Otherwise, how could that be ?.
It is obvious that in some very conservative, male dominated societies, where women will risk social ostracism or even ,in extreme cases, jail, savage beatings and death if they take charge of their sex life, they will prefer to deny , disown or suffocate their sexuality.
But, other than that, if there's no obligation to repress themselves, it makes no sense for them to abstain on the base of a biological disparity which does not exist ( and which scientists have stopped believing around the end of 19th century ). Or in the off chance that ten years later they may end up married with some guy who suffers from RJ.
They will abstain, or not, on the base of their individual preferences, inclinations, circumstances, wants and needs.
Again, I am not going to debate if this is a good thing or a bad one, I am just saying it IS. And honestly I have a hard time understanding how that might have escaped your observation, even if you have lived in a sexually conservative environment. The world does not end at the gate of your courtyard - I, personally, have never set foot in, say, Australia, yet I do not doubt that Australia exists , and that it is " normal".
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (21 May 2012): "Part of what is hurting you is the same thing that hurts me, she gave something so special away so cheaply to guys that took advantage of her"
That's it about the jealousy right there. Even if I accept that she wanted these guys and wasn't taken advantage of, as a man, the image in my mind is of my wife being a lot of horny young backpacker dudes' wet dream come true. Not pleasant.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (21 May 2012): Many interesting responses. Thank you all.
“Feelings does not need to be involved. Men and women are NOT different in this respect. Some men can have casual sex, as can some women… You need to stop thinking that men and women are somehow different when it comes to this. Women enjoy sex as much as men do, and will naturally have a craving for it. Just as many men as women want casual sex”
Thank you for your openness and for sharing that. It’s reassuring to hear from a female perspective, but a lot of men, me included, find this very difficult to understand. It’s tied up with our life experiences… a lot of guys spend our formative years wanting sex but knowing, realistically, it’s not going to happen. So we end up assuming girls are hard to get because they want ‘it’ a lot less than we do, if at all.
“When we get disenfranchised from all that mushy romantic stuff that's the time when we just want the casual fun without the heartache. Then when we are ready for love again we put our hearts into it.”
I guess this explains that part of her life pretty well. It sounds so simple, but for me the hurdle is getting past the idea that if a relationship isn’t available, women would unanimously prefer to remain celibate than have “guilt free casual encounters”.
Like the anonymous male poster, there are times I wish I could do an “Edit-Cut” on those few crazy years in her. But, even if it were possible, deep down I don’t think I would as I do love her because of who she is, to which her experiences have contributed. The jealousy just hurts, and the reasons for feeling jealous aren’t always pretty.
I am determined not to let this ruin our marriage.
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female
reader, chigirl +, writes (19 May 2012):
Sorry, didn't see your follow-up until after I posted. I'll respond now to your follow-up question.
"She was with her first bf from 15-17, and when they broke up she had sex with all those other guys because she "still needed sex but didn't want a relationship" because of the way he'd treated her. She actually said she'd used them rather than the other way round! I've never heard of a woman thinking like this before and was wondering whether the ladies on here can relate to her mindset, or shed any light on its 'normality',"
I'm like that. I like sex. I can have casual sex. Feelings does not need to be involved. Men and women are NOT different in this respect. Some men can have casual sex, as can some women. For the majority of people this doesn't work (you're one of the people it doesn't work for), but that still leaves tons of people who can do this without a problem at all.
Sure, many times a case of sexual abuse is the cause of promiscuity, but promiscuity itself is not necessarily tied up with any sexual abuse, low self etseem, lookingf or love the wrong way etc. Promiscuity can also be linked to the fact that people enjoy sex. And a real life person tends to offer a better sexual experience than going solo.
You need to stop thinking that men and women are somehow different when it comes to this. Women enjoy sex as much as men do, and will naturally have a craving for it. Just as many men as women want casual sex. The only difference is that society often encourages men to be promiscuous (making men have casual sex even though they might not have wanted it). Society also puts pressure on women to not have casual sex (making it difficult for women to be open about their sexual needs and wants without being labeled sluts).
When a man is promiscuous we hardly ever suspect sexual abuse or rape. But it happens to men as well. Not all men want to, or enjoy, casual sex.
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female
reader, chigirl +, writes (19 May 2012):
What if we said it was not normal? Would you send your wife to a mental institution then? Or are you looking for backup so you can lash out at her, be cruel to her, and call her names, tell her she is not normal and how bad she is and how you can't stand her any longer? Are you looking for justification for your feelings?
Whether she is "normal" or not isn't relevant. Yes, she is normal, as far as I know. It'd take something unnormal for her to not be normal, but having sex before 19, regardless of the number of guys involved, isn't a sign that you are mentally disturbed. Whethr it happens often or not I don't know. But how is that relevant to you at all? If every woman on earth slept with 10 guys before 19 then would it really make your situation different? Would it feel better? If no woman slept with any men before marriage would that make you feel worse about her past? If so then your issue isn't your own feelings around it: your issue is the high worth you put on other peoples opinions.
Now, it could be your wife's periodic high exchange of sexual partners was circumstancial. Maybe she wasn't normal: maybe she was on medication at the time. Maybe she was sexually abused as a young girl, or had been raped. Maybe she is mentally ill, but didn't start taking her medication until she turned 20. These cases would be cases where her behaviour is not normal.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (19 May 2012): i know how you feel.my wife before we got married had eight other guys, before me. it made me feel like i was , and some times is no. nine. the cream on top is she had these eight in about a years time at age seventeen ,to eighteen.
part of what is hurting you is the same thing that hurts me, she gave something so special away so cheaply to guys that took advantage of her.
i ask my self over and over why, why did this have to happen.
one thing for sure you are not alone, their are other guys that feel like you, including me.
i think why it hurts so bad is that it is someone we care and love more than life its self, and we can't undo or change the past of our wife.
but i wish i could.
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female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (19 May 2012):
Op, you must have lived a very sheltered life.
Of course a woman can cheerfully and casually walk off from a night of sex. Ask any Club Med entertainer or vacation resort sport instructor ,lifeguard, cruise staff, etc :). Women too have sex with men they do not mean too date.
I agree that is generally a default option, and that tendentially they are more relationship-oriented, feeling happier and more secure in a relationship. But, there are periods and situations in life when a r/ship not possible, advisable or even desirable- being very focused on studies or career , or recovering from a break up or divorce, or ,simply, not being able to find someone who meets their standards for regular companion.
Some women may choose to abstain for weeks months and years- and some ( many ) will not and indulge in guilt free encounters .
That you may disagree, or find that bad, sad or wrong , it's a legitimate opinion and it is surely shared by other people in society.
But that it does NOT happen, that it CAN'T happen, oh no , OP, see through your eyes and not through your rigid preconcept ideas, it happens, it happens all the time.
I'd like to add that you must have married a very loving, generous woman, and you don't quite realize it I guess. You can't get over her juvenile promiscuous phase , but she can get over your booze, drugs and the rest. Make sure you don't make her patience wear thin, even a generous heart has its limits.
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female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (19 May 2012):
 Yes women can walk away after sex and not get attached. Either they are in the mindset for casual fun, or they are seeking revenge. There is nothing abnormal about it. The notion that women must always be emotionally attached after sex is perhaps something men wish to keep a woman interested. The more attached the woman seems, the more secure a man feels. It can feel very threatening that a woman just walk away from sex. A woman can decide when she wants love, and when she wants it casual. I believe it's when people (both sexes) start getting hurt by the opposite sex, they begin to think that there is nothing magical about the love and the opposite sex. We are all flawed human beings. When we get disenfranchised from all that mushy romantic stuff that's the time when we just want the casual fun without the heartache. Then when we are ready for love again we put our hearts into it. I don't understand why this idea is so shocking for you.
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male
reader, Yos  +, writes (19 May 2012):
 It's a very average number. It's quite normal. It also happened a long long time ago. You should take heart in the fact that she then had a very long term relationship: it show's she's a keeper and someone who can hold down a long relationship.
The best thing you can do is to stop thinking about this. That's not easy: but the more you think about it the more it will bother you. You can't change it, you can only change how much it matters to you. Decide it doesn't matter and move on.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (18 May 2012): OP here, thanks for all your responses.To the last male poster - sorry buddy, and thanks for your support, but you're wrong. I knew all along she'd had way more than one other guy before me as we go back a long way as friends, it's just that when our relationship started after she broke up with her long term ex, we were fwb nothing more, so her history didn't bother me. Then, almost out of nowhere one day a couple of months after I'd fallen in love with her and proposed, the sky caved in.We talked about it and she told me everything, as I did her about my life. Since then I haven't raised the topic again, much as I feel the need to, as I know she's been honest and going over the same ground repeatedly will achieve nothing and in fact only harm our relationship. Instead I've fought my internal battle with the aid of booze, drugs, self harm and counselling, which has had some success (the counselling) but not cured the problem. I think I just need to vent. I've taken it out on her, not verbally or violently but by denying sex and being generally cold and passive-aggressive.What really freaks me out is that, yes, we all know promiscuous women exist, but they usually fall into a few defined categories: abused, attention seekers, looking for validation/love in the wrong way etc. My wife is none of those. She was with her first bf from 15-17, and when they broke up she had sex with all those other guys because she "still needed sex but didn't want a relationship" because of the way he'd treated her. She actually said she'd used them rather than the other way round! I've never heard of a woman thinking like this before and was wondering whether the ladies on here can relate to her mindset, or shed any light on its 'normality', or lack of. For some reason, this is important to me.Gents, if your experiences are similar to mine, you know that even if a girl willingly engages in casual sex with you, there's that tinge of guilt and regret in the aftermath. I personally have never met a woman who could just do the deed then walk away on friendly terms having got all she wanted out of it (sex, and nothing more). Please help me out here.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (18 May 2012): No, she is NOT the woman the O.P. fell in love with and married!
He fell in love with a woman who had only slept with one other guy. Like it or not, that was obviously one of the qualities that he really loved about her. (And its not anyone else's right to dictate what he should want in his mate. He is a person with his own rights too.)
Now that woman has been taken away from him and replaced with a different version of her. The new version is a lot more promiscuous and also a liar. Is it any wonder he is bothered?
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female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (18 May 2012):
 I wasn't aware that there was a "normal" number of sexual partners a woman was allowed at a certain age.
Some women do casual sex, some don't.
Seems to me that she outgrew the causal sex and matured.
I don't see why you are looking into the past. What good will it do you? Or her? The number won't change, she won't change either. She is still the woman you fell in love with and married.
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female
reader, Irish49 +, writes (18 May 2012):
 All the below, is good, sensible advice you have recieved. I think you should take your worries here and turn it around into a positive. She cannot change her past, she was a teenager then and don't forget...she also had a long term relationship for many years in her 20's. So now at the age of 34, you know, she has developed, grown and matured.
I feel it takes an incredible trusting, loving marriage and self-assurance on the part of both or one of the couple, to openly talk about past experiences and relationships. It can be a great way to learn more about each other. You really need to try to move on from this..and not allow this negativity destroy your marriage.
If you cannot, I would suggestb you both get into some marriage counseling...before the marriage blows up.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (18 May 2012): It's definitely not normal and you know it. That's why you're upset.
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male
reader, Mr. Y  +, writes (18 May 2012):
what is killing you is that earlier you used to think that you were the second person in her life but now you know that you are standing at the 11 position.This has decreased your importance that you held with respect to her.So basically you are asking the world whether it is normal to be with a woman for whom you are of such a low importance? Is that normal for me to hold myself so low and still live ? Now look at it from the perspective of the women.She started it early,she used to look down upon herself.So she had sex with 9 guys so that she could get all the attention and affection in this world.Once she reached 19 she realized that she had got enough attention and affection and now she needed to act more brainy, and more normal.So , she settled with one person after that.So now you are with this changed women who is more controlled now.She told you now because she thought that your relationship with her is deep enough for you to understand this and live with it.This is a test of your relationship
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female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (18 May 2012):
Yes, pretty normal. Maybe lamentable, maybe unwise, maybe objectionable, but still " normal " in the sense of fairly common. For women and men alike.
Teenage years are often rather turbulent. It's a time for exploration and curiosity, it's a time of discovering the thrill of being able making your own choices, and this power of choice is often misused and abused until you get the hang of it and come to understand stuff about yourself and how life works. It's also ,alas, mostly for girls, a time of emotional vulnerability and insecurity about their self worth and attractiveness, and often they see sex as a tool to get validation, attention and, basically, love.
Things change, girls grow up and learn to make better choices, or at least choices based on different criteria. same as it happened to your wife, who once she found the right person has been totally monogamous for the last 11 years.And , very likely, this is how she is going to stay- unless you don't totally bust her chops by your bouts of Reatroactive Jealousy.
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female
reader, Foot-In-My-Mouth +, writes (18 May 2012):
 I don't know what you mean by 'normal for a woman' but I do think it's not really abnormal for a 'person' to have multiple sex partners during adolescence. Adolescence is a time of confusion and experimentation. It's also a time of emotional vulnerability and hormonal chaos. And I don't even think your wife is promiscuous. She was in a stable, monogamous relationship with a man for 11-12 years! I hardly know too many people who've pulled that off. The problem lies in your mind, I'm afraid. If you can't deal with the truth of her past and want to hold a grudge against her for the rest of your life, you'd better leave her. And if you can deal with it and realise that it is human to make mistakes, and that any person, irrespective of gender, can get carried away at times, then save the relationship. It's your choice. What's your priority? Your fragile ego or your marriage? Only you have the answer.
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male
reader, rcn +, writes (18 May 2012):
 Do you love her? Is your experience with her now, or in the past? You are making a choice to let her past affect your present. It's a choice. It's yours and really has nothing to do with her, other than it will end up causing conflict, and can damage your relationship. Some people have a past... I agree it hurts, but that is your jealousy acting up. It's not the fact of who she was with, or the number, what hurts is that these were experiences that she shared with someone else and not you. That's what you need to get over and realize. Now...today is your experience with her. You loved her enough to get married to her, so love her for who she is and not for what she has done.
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female
reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (18 May 2012):
The number is not zero before you but it's also not in the 50 scale. It averages out to one guy every 6 months. One of the things teenagers do is make dubious choices. I think those poor choices are often helped along by alcohol. Teens are notoriously fickle as well.
It sounds like this is coming as quite a shock to you. Perhaps learning this now is more upsetting than the absolute number?
You ask, is this normal behaviour for a woman? Does that mean if it were a man, it would be normal?
What if we said, no, absolutely not, every single woman except yours has been a virgin before marriage? Or if the aunts declared that every single woman sleeps around like crazy before deciding to con a virgin male into her marriage web? She was sexually active as a teen, with a partner every 6 months. Then she stopped. I wonder what happened that made her change the numbers?
Perhaps the question you need to ask yourself is if you are going to be able to forgive a teenager for making questionable choices. Do you want to save the marriage or are you looking for an 'out'?
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female
reader, Arete +, writes (18 May 2012):
Without knowing your wife or the specifics of her childhood/adolescence, it's really hard to say what's "normal." As you've observed, some women reach "numbers" in the 50s or above in a very short time, others stay virgins until marriage. It would seem to me, then, that your wife falls somewhere in the middle. On the lower end of "middle," in fact. I'm guessing that she became sexually active at a more early age than she was emotionally prepared for and it took her some poor choices to realize that giving a man sex is no promise that he'll love you afterward.I know that hearing this revelation after what I presume are years of marriage must have been shocking and painful for you. But I would take comfort in the fact that whatever behavior pattern led to promiscuity in your wife's youth has obviously changed as she matured. To me it would be far more alarming if she'd stayed a virgin till, say, her mid- or late twenties and then had sex with 10 partners before meeting you.The woman you love is herself because of every experience she's ever had in her life, including the ones that pain you. Your unhappiness is natural, but let time help to heal it and please try not to pass judgment on her in the meantime, as being honest with you about this must have taken great courage on her part. Best wishes.
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female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (18 May 2012):
5 years, 2 guys a year on average. It's a very young age to be having sex but nothing too extreme. It's possible she had an issue when young, but it's also possible she is perfectly normal. We can't as strangers on the forum judge this.
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male
reader, anonymous12345150  +, writes (17 May 2012):
my previous partner had sex with 12 people and sucked of god knows how many she was 19 and i was 20 if it bothers u i would leave the relationship that stuff won't go away it will just destroy your relationship if it bothers u.also if you have different morals/values on sex then ur incompatible (I'm talking from my own experience
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (17 May 2012): The lifetime number of partners for the average American is the subject of much debate, but it pretty much always falls somewhere under 10. Sometimes well under 10. So having 10 partners in 3-4 years, that is definitely well above normal. Maybe double normal or more.but what is being "normal" worth? Even if it was normal, that still does not mean you have no right to be upset about it. It is also pretty normal for people to do all sorts of things much worse than sleeping around. Your feelings are yours. You have just as much right to feel upset about her choices as she had the right to make them. But I don't suggest you start giving her a hard time about it. She has done nothing wrong to you unless she previously deceived you about her sexual values. Either accept it or break up, there is no middle ground. But don't expect these feelings to just go away on their own later. If you cannot put them aside pretty quickly then don't ever expect to stop feeling hurt about it.
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