A
female
age
22-25,
k_c100
writes:After recently seeing a large number of posts on this site from men asking how to deal with a woman’s sexual past, I wondered why men were so concerned with something that at the end of the day, cannot be changed. So I entered into a conversation with one of the said posters on this site who himself was struggling with his girlfriends past. I found the debate to be quite interesting and thought I would share this with you all, please feel free to comment!Male:You said you want to know why men are so obsess with their gf's past? Well there is quite sound logic to it, and its not just men being stupid...Men, in late teens and early adulthood are pre-programmed to sleep around. We are programmed to fined easy women, inseminate them and leave. The principle being that we are trying to increase the number of our offspring in the world, and hence spread our genes.When we grow up a little we choose a monogamous mate with whom to settle down and have a family. At this point rather than just spreading our sperm and hoping to have offspring, we are investing our time into maximising the potential for children and maximising the potential for their survival by being there to bring them up.For this relationship we choose women to respect, and women who are not promiscuous. By choosing a woman who is selective and careful with her partners, and doesn’t sleep around, we are maximising the chance that the child she bears is our own and not another mans’.We inquire into and are bothered about our woman’s past, because if they behaved in a promiscuous manner there is a possibility she is still like that and we could end up bringing up another mans child. Now...if they have a promiscuous past but regret it ad show they do not agree with the behaviour, its subconsciously reassuring that we have a women who will be exclusive to ourselves. If however she thinks her behaviour was fine, it sows seed of doubt and worry even on a subconscious level.Logically we can tell ourselves many times that she loves us and will never cheat, but subconsciously our brain tells us she is sexually a risk because she thinks its ok to have slept with 50 men.We want an easy woman to be promiscuous with as youngsters, but a solid non-promiscuous woman with whom to invest time and energy bringing up children.The women who is a virgin and isn't a great lover of sex is a much lower risk in terms of being pregnant with someone else’s child, than the women who slept with 50 men and wants sex 10 times a day.It does of course seem rather irrational, and logically we should be secure in knowing that they have chosen us to be their mates for life. But subconsciously we are wrestling with thousands of years of evolution encouraging us to settle with a non-previously promiscuous partner.Female: Its always the past with you men and you seem to have no ability to look to the future! I understand about all the primal instincts about a good mother for your children and not wanting to raise another man's baby - but surely we have evolved past cavemen and cavewomen! Especially with the raising other people's kids - it is pretty obvious when someone is pregnant and you can tell who the father is by the dates, so surely modern man must realise this!And if we are going off our primeval instincts then what about women?! We were supposed to choose a partner based upon strength and ability to provide for us and our children. But I think it is very rare to find a man these days who is both physically and emotionally strong, and someone who wants to provide for a woman - look at today's culture of women working just as much as men and still bringing up the kids. Today men expect women to be independent - if we wanted "providing for" we would be classed as "needy" and no man would go anywhere near us! Or labelled a gold digger!So I think it appears that (based on both of our arguments) that men are still stuck in caveman mode, harbouring primal instincts that are now unnecessary whereas women have evolved to accept men of all types. I actually think it sounds quite true, but also quite sad at the same time! Women have evolved but men are stuck in the dark ages, lucky us!Male:I need to address the principle that you believe men and women should have evolved out of their primeval and illogical (in today’s times) instincts. However, it’s not as simple as that. Firstly, society in terms of current culture has only had these views and understandings of relationships in the last couple of hundred years. This is negligible compared to millions of years of human evolution and behaviour.Men are governed very much by our emotions, but unfortunately we don’t understand them well at all. Interestingly we are built to be less emotionally aware than women, what hunting would have gotten done if we contemplated the emotional ramifications of taking animal life? (Silly example I know).Human behaviour is incredibly complex, but what is becoming more and more clear is that we are far less removed from our primeval ancestors tan we would like to believe. Most women still seek out, weather they realise or not, the physically and emotionally strong male. Just because they can get along OK without him doesn’t mean they don’t want him. Men can get along with a promiscuous wife; it doesn’t mean they don’t want her to be a virgin. See what im getting at?...You said its pretty obvious when she’s carrying someone else’s kid...yes it is, to our conscious intelligent brains. These however are areas that have developed late in the evolution of the human brain, the ancient areas dictating the desire for a virgin etc. cannot understand easily when she is carrying someone else’s child, and the conscious intelligent brain cant actively switch off with logic an instinct that is millions of years old.Women have a real hard time understanding why men get hung up on this stuff, guess what... so do men. But light can be shed on things when we look at them in terms of basic instinct. We are animals after all....Female:I've just read something online which seems to fit with what we have been talking about:"When we're young, our sex drive is strongly influenced by finding the best male mate to reproduce with, which is why biologists believe we're programmed to desire 'high-status' men - that is, men who are physically fit, attractive and good providers.Psychologists agree that our sex drive is linked to reproduction, but believe that it leads us to men with 'good genes' who we sense will make good fathers and remain loyal to us."The article was actually about female sex drives, and what really turns a woman on. So going off their findings (it was based on some research) then younger women are more likely to have a higher sex drive because we as women are more keen to try and find a partner to reproduce with. Therefore this could be applied to your girlfriend - maybe she subconsciously slept with these guys because they fit the ideal "type" of man to reproduce with and her instincts were telling her body to reproduce? And maybe that explains why women go through a promiscuous phase when they are in their late teens/early twenties?It sounds a little silly to me but if we can explain all male behaviour with the theory of evolution and reproduction instincts then surely we can apply the same to women?And going back to the idea that women seek out men that can provide for us etc - this just doesn’t seem true to me anymore. Women are socially not allowed to need men today - we have to have our own careers, own money and our independence in order to be deemed attractive. Look at the rise of footballer's wives and major sports star's wives - these women are technically just following their primal instincts because here are men that are very physically fit and have lots of money - the perfect provider. Yet to be one of these women that actively pursues a man for his money is hugely frowned upon by society and if a man did think a woman was only interested in him for his ability as a provider - he would run a mile!So women have to adhere to the male ideal that we are all virgins (or at least haven’t slept with that many men) because socially that is still acceptable - so men are actively encouraged to continue to use these primal instincts when choosing a partner. Whereas women are actively discouraged to use their primal instincts because we will be branded a "gold digger" or we are unintelligent because we want a man with money because we are not clever enough to make our own.So perhaps men and women will never understand each other on this issue because men have been positively reinforced to use their primal instincts whereas women have been negatively reinforced - therefore we will go around in circles never understanding each other until society one day accepts that a man should provide for a woman? Somehow I think that will never happen, men know now that they can have an easier lifestyle if their partner is working just as much as them and still bringing up the children and maintaining the home. Men will never want to go back to being the sole provider - why would they when their wife can make the same amount of money as them (which means he doesn’t have to pay for her to go clothes shopping - more money for boys toys and the pub!) and she will still carry out the traditional functions of wife and mother too.Perhaps even this promiscuity in women is a rebellion against the life we have been landed with today - why should we behave like the "virgin" ideal that men hold when men are allowed to be the opposite of the "provider" ideal? Perhaps if men started acting like men again and providing for their women then we perhaps might start acting like women should? We have to be masculine in so many ways in modern society - perhaps sleeping around is just another way we have started to act like men!After my last message I am still waiting for a response so I will post any updates!
View related questions:
money, sex drive, sexual past, sperm Reply to this Article |
You can add your comments or thoughts to this article A
male
reader, RosesAreRed86  +, writes (2 November 2009):
Yos, TroubledTooMuch and Code Warrior made brilliant observations, and there is validity to everything they said.
I think, however, why promiscuous women (even though who believe they are just "looking for love") are a turn off to men can be summed up by what the original poster k_c100 said:
"Perhaps most women with high numbers of sexual partners are just all really bad judges of character and fall for the wrong men?"
I think this is absolutely true. Every single promiscuous women in the world is either one of two things: 1) a shameless slut who doesn't see anything wrong with sleeping with a lot of men, regardless of whether they care about her or not or, 2) a girl who may actually care about whether the guys respect her or not, but is an extremely bad judge of character.
Either way, slutty behavior is indicative of weakness in a women, either in her morals, or her judgement.
A
male
reader, metalsman + ♥, writes (7 September 2009):
 Correction..I meant i'm one of the 90% shy/caring/non-experienced guys who fell for one of the 90% women.
...............................
A
male
reader, metalsman + ♥, writes (7 September 2009):
I'd like to thank ALL the contributors to this discussion, i read with great interest what i think is a well balanced, constructively argued, and supportive article.I'm one of those 10% guys who unfortunatley have been trying to contend with the issues raised by this disscussion for some time now..and after 25yrs of marriage i'm only just seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.That is not to say that 25yrs have been sheer unadulterated hell..far from it, but the ground swell feelings have always been there and within the last 18months raised themselves to new thresholds..all because of lack of understanding on my part and deliberate witholding of communication of the facts by my better half.Much of the phsycology of what's been written here i can agree with (both female and male orientated) and i found to be enlightening and helpful, thanks again folks..
...............................
A
male
reader, troubledtoomuch + ♥, writes (5 September 2009):
 Sorry for being offensive. I was just trying to understand how some other person thinks about posting personal stories on this board. I normally review any of my answers that have personal information with my wife to get her opinion on whether she is bothered by the information given. I have read an occasional question where the person asking is worried that their partner might read it and it makes me wonder why people don't talk their problems over with their partners first. Many, perhaps most, times my advice is to better communication between partners.
...............................
A
male
reader, Code Warrior + ♥, writes (5 September 2009):
 Well, lets satisfy that offensive little curiosity of yours, shall we?I was joking with my wife.My wife is more worried that my advice will cause a terrible calamity because the question posters do not give us the whole story, so I thought it would be funny if she read a posting of mine that had calamity disclaimers. After all, my reply to k_c100 is written from the point of view that I am dating her in order to give her a flavor for my thought process. Fake dating another woman on a message board qualifies as a calamity, does it not?Since this was a discussion about our opinions and we were not giving unsolicited advice to each other I thought I could post it without anyone taking it too seriously.Has that cleared things up enough for you or are you still concerned about my motives?
...............................
A
male
reader, troubledtoomuch + ♥, writes (4 September 2009):
I'm a little curious Code Warrior. Why is it that you are concerned about your wife reading what you say? My wife reads a lot of what I say on this board and other boards. We discuss things that we don't agree on. She knows exactly how I feel about her past behavior, my past behavior and both of our present behaviors. We are not happy with some of what the other has done in the past, both before and after we started dating, and we are not happy with some of what we have done in the past ourselves. I am not afraid of her reading what I have to say about both her and me as I try to answer questions and discuss subjects like this. My first question on this board was about my renewed trouble accepting my wife's past behavior. I wrote it and asked her to read it and tell me if she agreed with my assessment or if she thought I misunderstood something. I think that is the way that our relationship should be. That might not be best for many people though, as everyone is different.
I'm not accusing you or your wife of anything at all or insinuating that either of you are doing anything wrong in your relationship. I am just curious as to why you seem to be concerned about her reading your post on this discussion.
...............................
A
male
reader, Code Warrior + ♥, writes (4 September 2009):
Since you directed your question at me, I will answer it based on what you have written. But first, A disclaimer:IF MY WIFE IS READING THIS IT IS NOT REAL! IT IS JUST A DRAMATIZATION DESIGNED TO MAKE A POINT ON THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION!There, now we can continue.Every person has their own set of values that they must hold themselves accountable to. There is a huge difference between sleeping with guys the first time you meet them and doing so after careful consideration that concludes in a desire to connect on a deeper emotional level.In addition, I want to make it perfectly clear that I get as horny as the next guy, maybe moreso, I don't know. Furthermore, I DO NOT MAKE LOVE EVERY TIME I HAVE SEX! We are human and sometimes we just want to get laid! People in committed relationships always have quickies because one or the other or both are horny. That sex is usually of the hot and sweaty variety that most people would label "Hot Sex". Outside the context of a committed relationship the sex would have been devoid of emotion and pure lust would have been the driving force.I do not consider women who do that in the context of a commited relationship to be sluts. They are in love and it is another way to show their partner love that really helps with stress relief!If the same thing happens outside the context of a committed relationship, I would NEVER consider them to be a "good catch". They would just be meaningless sluts.That being said, I always MADE LOVE the FIRST TIME. In each case, I knew them long before we did anything, not that we were close friends prior to dating, but that we talked frequently to each other and eventually started dating, making out, etc.The rest of my note I will speak to you as if we are dating and just had this talk where you have told me about your past.A red flag would immediately be raised for me. This does not mean that I would hang a "SLUT" sign around your neck, chain you to a post in the village square, and cease all contact with you.I would endeavor to find out more about the past relationships by talking to you and trying to get a feel for where you were emotionally at the time you decided to sleep with these guys. I would also want to know if any of them had stalked you or threatened you in any way.I would not make love with you until I could trust you not to voilate my intimate space by cheating. This process takes time. It is very messy and causes fights. Therefore, I would take it slow with you.I would hope that we would have met and had talks as acquaintances where I would have the opportunity to get to know you better and learned some of these things before we started dating. If, during that time, there was a strong sexual chemistry between us, then I would probably want to start dating you so that I could get a little more personal.In your case, based on your note, I would likely conclude that you are a little niave with some men and want to believe that they care for you. You fear losing them, so you take action in the hope of keeping them around. Your intentions are honorable, but their intentions are not. You make them wait, but not quite long enough to let them leave. I don't know if they have pressured you or made statements to you that led you to act in each particular case, but you did act and they left. They violated your intimate space and it hurt you.I would not hold such relationships against you. It is clear to me that you are motivated by a desire to make a deeper connection and you have been taken advantage of. I'm not saying that it was that way every time. I'm sure that many times the relationships just faded as time went by. In addition, I would not hold your teenage relationships against you, I would not even want to know about them. Those were all the formative learning experiences of an immature person and I believe that it is unfair to hold them against you.The sexual encounters that would cause concern for me would be any that were the result of drunken behavior or the result of needing to get laid outside of a relationship context becuase you were horny and could not control yourself, or did not want to. Or those that were in a relationship where you were having sex on the first date. My concern in the case of drunken encounters would be your level of regret and what steps you took to avoid repeating. I see no good in the pure horny ones, so any such would make it difficult for me to trust you in a moment of weakness with a really hot guy... The last type calls judgement into question.I don't recall you mentioning any of those, so I will conclude that they are not present. Therefore, based on wrote, I would not consider you promiscuous, merely a little foolish. I would trust that you are indeed looking for the deeper emotional connection. If I were dating you, I would likely be able to trust you enough to be intimate. This does not mean I think you are a fool. Just a little too trusting for your own good.As to your final contention that it is pointless and men will always treat women badly and still expect them not to have sex. I disagree completely and would tell you that you are not fully owning your part in the problem. What I would say is that you have not taken enough time to weed out those men that are only looking for sex. Had you done so, many would have indeed left and you would have had far fewer partners, but would have likely found the deeper connection with the ones you had because they stuck around long enough. You did not, consequently, your numbers are high and raise the red flag. It is not the end of the world, it is only one factor in our decision making process.Personally, I never pressured for sex. I would ask for an orgasm if our making out was hot and heavy, and I would be willing to give her one as well if she wanted it, but no intercourse until I felt a deeper connection.How long does that take? There is no correct answer. It takes as long as it takes. If you stop having sex until the guy leaves, and you do this with a series of guys, you will never have sex and never have the intimacy. So there is no answer. I think you need to pay attention to your own note, reflect on those experiences to see if there was anything you can see with hindsight, learn from it, and move on.I don't know if I have answered your question to me, so I will await your reply. Boy, I hope my wife doesn't read this and get the wrong idea....
...............................
A
male
reader, troubledtoomuch + ♥, writes (4 September 2009):
I guess our definitions of regret are different. Your wishing that you had fewer sexual partners is regret to me. Maybe I'm using the word improperly. I'll have to look up the dictionary definition. My wife does not wish that she had not had any sexual partners during those 3 years and neither do I. She just wishes that she had not slept with 4 or 5 of those 10 or so guys. The rest taught her something about herself and they were nice guys. Even the last one who obviously just wanted a FWB was good for her. She wanted a relationship, but she stayed with him because she needed somebody and didn't want to increase her number until she found somebody who she thought would be a possibility.I don't know why women have to tell a guy about their pasts. Well, actually, I think I do. The reason that my wife had to tell me was because she was not proud of what she had done and wanted to tell me. She never got a reputation among the people who we both knew, but perhaps she was worried that I would find out too. I never asked any woman about her past, but 3 of my 4 serious partners just had to tell me or at least start telling me. Perhaps I would have eventually asked, but I never had the chance to find out. Actually, I even knew about the 4th, as she got pregnant at the age of 16 and got married and was with her husband until just before we started dating. I might have been her 2nd lifetime partner, but I don't know.I think you are right in your approach about telling. Don't volunteer the information, but don't lie either. Either tell the guy that you don't want to talk about it or tell the truth if he asks. If he wants to discuss it to understand why you did some things then tell him you will discuss it if he promises not to make you feel cheap and keeps that promise. Saying that you boinked 20 guys and then refusing to say anything else will probably make him think the worst. Of course, you might luck out and he will think that 20 is a small number and be happy. I really don't know how guys think these days, as it was 30 years ago that my wife and I started dating. From the questions on DC, it appears to not have changed much. That is too bad. I'm not happy with myself for having such a difficult time accepting my wife's past behavior. Perhaps it would have been easier if she had been willing to talk about it when she told me instead of when all the bad feeling came back 2 years ago. I guess I just hid them well for all those years. She said that I didn't show that it still bothered me and it really didn't for many years.Anyway, good discussion. My wife read all of this except your last post and can relate. She wasn't finding anyone either after she got over the promiscuous phase and wanted a real relationship. But as she said, you are young and have a lot of time to find the right guy. She was 34 when she and I started dating and was feeling old. That sounds funny now that we are in our 60s. Good luck.
...............................
A
female
reader, k_c100 + ♥, writes (4 September 2009):
k_c100 is verified as being by the original poster of the question I totally agree, acting proud of your sexual exploitations in the past is a recipe for disaster, it just shouts "I slept around and loved it!". I think my approach for the future will be to not bring the subject up (I never like to talk about my past or his either, I think it is silly to look backwards when you are just starting a new relationship) but if he does ask then I will be honest and just give the real number.
As for you thinking that I will oneday admit to myself that I regret my past behaviour - I think that is unlikely. I just think it was part of me growing up and it was a learning experience really, I wouldnt be who I am today if I hadnt done all that in the past. Yes maybe I would like to have a smaller number of sexual partners and wished that I realised sooner that sleeping around wasnt the way to go but I wont ever regret what I did - there is no point in living life with regrets.
...............................
A
male
reader, troubledtoomuch + ♥, writes (4 September 2009):
I can understand where you are coming from. You have to sleep with the guy within a few weeks or else he will move on to someone else. I understand that. But what about the women who made a habit of sleeping with a guy who she just met at a bar 2 hours earlier? What about the women who slept with everyone on the first date? For instance, I was the first guy who my wife didn't sleep with on the first date or the night she met him after she left her first husband. We were both divorced and in our mid 30s at the time. Why didn't she? Because I didn't make the slightest attempt at trying. On the second date I took it very slow and gave her every chance to tell me to stop. She didn't. This is how I acted with every woman who I dated, except the one night stand that I am not happy about. The total was 5, including her. I didn't believe it right to expect sex. I also never tried to get sex for the first time when a woman was drunk. I wanted her to sleep with me because she wanted to. The interesting is that every woman who I dated back then wanted to sleep with me on the first date.Why do women sleep with guys they just met? There are many reasons that I can see from discussions with my wife and reading many questions and answers here. They have gone through a bad relationship or marriage where they were cheated on or put down. They are angry and demoralized. They feel unattractive or old or something like that. They want to get even with the ex or are seeking confirmation that they are attractive or are just lonely and seeking affection and/or love. They need something.Then there are those that have just gotten their freedom from their parents. Perhaps they have just separated from a husband of years and he was their only sexual partner until the separation. They now want to experience what they have heard that other women are doing. They jump into bed with many guys, perhaps guys who they just met or guys who are friends.The women who I dated were women who I met at work. I knew them before we dated. I never tried to pick up a woman at a bar. There were 2 reasons for that. I didn't think I was very good at that and they were not the type of women who I wanted to be with. Women tried to pick me up at a bar on 2 occasions and I just got away from them. Nicely, of course. I think that women who have sex with guys who they meet at bars or clubs are asking for failure. Guys think of these women as easy lays, but not as relationship partners. Not all of course. The first guy who my wife met after leaving her ex was after a relationship, but could not attract any women who he knew. As my wife found out after a few months, there was a reason. He had some phobias that were deal breakers. Still, he really wanted her and was very nice to her and they dated for over a year. She also slept with 4 or 5 other guys in that time period. She finally broke up with him The rest of the guys who she slept with were just after the sex and disappeared after they were through with her, except the one who she was dating when she met me. He wanted to continue dating her, along with other women, but he made it clear that he didn't want a relationship. She dated him for 6 or 8 months and broke up with him the night after our first date. Actually, she didn't want a serious relationship for that first year after she left her ex.Yes, women do have it tough. They either have to put out or get dumped. However, they can weed out the worst of the guys by waiting 3 or 4 dates before they sleep with him. The worst will leave before that. But then I guess you have discovered that waiting a few dates doesn't work that well either. Besides, sex is fun for both the men and the women. I have no answers how to make it better though.The men have it tough too. There are the feelings that I have discussed. Then there is the fact that it is normally left up to us to make the approach and make the first moves. We get rejected a lot and it is demoralizing, especially to us shy guys or those who lacked confidence in themselves as lovers. There seem to be a lot of guys who are very confident in themselves in most every way except relationships. Men and women both have it tough, but in different ways.From your story, it sounds to me like you acted more promiscuous when you first went off to uni and then you started to seek a real relationship. You were the slut who turned into a desirable partner. I'm not being nasty here. Just like my wife and many other women do for many reasons. There is the young and free group and then the ones who have been hurt badly in a relationship. They are promiscuous for a certain reason and then settle down. That does not make them bad, but it does make it difficult for most or at least many guys to be comfortable with their past behavior. I couldn't ask for much more that I have with my formerly promiscuous wife. It took me a long time to understand what she was going through when she acted like that. She just had to "confess" to me early in our relationship and then refuse to talk about it. I never asked any women about her past, but 3 of the 4 who I actually dated had to tell me for some reason. You say that you are not particularly proud of parts of your past, but are not ashamed. My wife said the same. However, I doubt the truth in that. If women are not ashamed then why do they just have to tell a guy who they are starting to really like all about it. I think there is some shame there, but they cannot even admit it to themselves. I can understand that. I am also ashamed of how I treated my first wife, but it took a long time to admit it to myself. I am ashamed of how I didn't show her much love or didn't make an effort to make sure that she enjoyed our sex. I'm ashamed of the mean things that I sometimes said to her that hurt. I'm ashamed of how I would reject her when she tried to show love at times. After she left, I worked very hard to correct all of these problems and my wife says that I did, as I was different when we started to date about 6 months later. However, it took years before I really could admit the way I acted and really felt bad about it. My wife can now admit that it was the same for her with her previously promiscuous behavior. We both feel bad about the things that we did. You can decide who did the worse things, but in my opinion I did.Men and women both have feelings that bother them. How would you feel if you found out that the guy who you have dated for 6 or 8 months had cheated on his last partner and she left him? How wound you feel if he had a 3some with 2 women? OK, this is not a normal behavior for either sex, but you do see questions here about it. It is the same way a guy thinks about his new love's past promiscuity. We all make mistakes and we all can change for the better. Some people do change and others don't. How can we know if our new love has changed or never will? How can us guys know if past promiscuity will show up after marriage? How can you women know if he will cheat or if he will treat you badly? It is a chance that we all take when in a new relationship. It can always be a concern.I saw 2 of my wife's former boyfriends and her ex hubby. I never talked to either of them, as it was basically just in passing and she told me who they were. They were both good looking guys. One was the first partner who really liked her. It was about 3 years after she broke up with him and I mentioned to her that he looked at her like he still loved her and she agreed. There was no nasty look at me or any look of confrontation. He just looked at her with some sadness. The second guy was her last boyfriend. He was at a restaurant when we were there and he came up to her when I went to the restroom and left before I got back to the table. She said that he just wished her luck. He tried to contact her a couple of times after she broke up with him to get back with her, but she ignored him.I have no answer to all of this, but do have one suggestion for those women who want to tell their new partner about their past. There have been a few questions here in the past 2 years that I have been on DC where a women will ask how to tell her new boyfriend. Many women say not to tell him anything, some say to lie and some say to sound proud of your past when you tell him. They say to sound like you are proud of how you acted. Well, in my opinion, that is a recipe for a major problem. There is little else that will make the guy feel worse than giving him the thought that you are proud of past promiscuity. It is like saying to him, "I'm a slut and I'm proud of it." Just my little suggestion. I have other ways of not doing it, but I have no real suggestion of a way to tell him that will make him feel great about it.
...............................
A
female
reader, k_c100 + ♥, writes (4 September 2009):
k_c100 is verified as being by the original poster of the questionWell thanks for the replies everyone! It is great to hear all of your opinions on the matter!
Now more specifically to Code Warrior, I would like to respond to your post. You make some very valid points and it is good to see the more "emotional" side to a male reasoning about this issue.
However I would like to give myself as an example and see what you have to think. I am 22 and have slept with 20 men. I am not particularly proud of that but then again I am not ashamed either, I dont have any regrets so I dont believe I should feel that I have done something wrong by sleeping with this number of men. So I am sure by all of your standards I would be classed as "promiscous" or at worst a "slag/slut".
But is it really fair to stereotype all women that have slept with what, more than 5-10 men as sluts/promiscous? Is it fair to say that none of us care about "making love" and we dont form deep emotional connections? I think it is wrong to taint all women with high numbers of sexual partners in this was, while I am sure you are right about some women, others (like myself) do not act in this way!
I admit when I was 18 and first went to uni there was a phase when I slept around, I guess it was because I had my freedom from living away from home and perhaps that went to my head, and I felt sexually free as well.
But I quickly grew out of this and started to look for real relationships based on much more than just sex. When I went away to uni I had slept with 5 men - 3 being serious relationships where I was very much in love. Throughout my 3 years at uni I slept with a total of 12 men - 2 of which were serious relationships and the rest were people I was casually "seeing". But still, within the last year since graduating I have slept with a further 4 men - this is where my problem lies.
I have realised that I dont want to carry on as I did at uni, I want to find something real and meaningful. However my number is still increasing, so I ask myself why? I dont just jump into bed with these men, I wait a month/2 months to sleep with them, I make sure they like me and I feel the same about them...but then nothing seems to work out! Men seem to be getting incredibly good at blatantly lying, acting like cowards and not communicating. If men were more honest and straightforwards with their thoughts/feelings then women would not always get into these situation!
Like the last guy I dated for example. We had been seeing each other regularly for around a month, I really liked him and was genuinely excited about the relationship and where it could be going. He came over one night, we went to the cinema and he stayed at my house. That was the first time we had sex - I wanted to make sure I liked him and he liked me before I slept with him and felt at this point that we were definitely moving towards something special. But surprise surprise within a week or 2 of sleeping with him (we continued to meet up regularly after that one night and go on dates etc) he just vanished, off the face of the earth it seems! With no explanation, just wont return my texts! What annoys me the most is that he didnt have the decency to let me know it wasnt working or whatever, after he had been saying things like "I've waited so long to meet someone like you", "I really like you" - all the usual stuff you say when you first start seeing someone.
So what are women supposed to do? Not have sex with every guy they date (and then consequently lose him because there is only so long a man will wait!) just in case things dont work out? Is it so wrong that I believe in love, and finding someone special so I go out on dates and enter into relationships with these people? Because at the end of the day I am very happy alone, and enjoy my own company but it would make my life that little bit better if I had a great man in my life. So when I do start to develop feelings for someone and want the relationship to progress, is it so wrong for me to sleep with them? After all, it makes you feel closer as a couple, it is something special that you share so why not have sex?
In reality I think I have just had a bit of a bad time with men recently (a couple of them have been exactly the same as this guy I was talking about above!). So I have the choice - I could stereotype all men as being jerks (like said guy above) just in the same way that you stereotype all women with a high number of sexual partners as promiscous and devoid of emotions. But I wont do that in the vain hope that one day I will meet a man that isnt a complete idiot!
Maybe I am just a bad judge of character, but how can men say these things to a woman (to her face) and not mean them? Or how do they change in such a short space of time? Men appear to be very fickle and can blow hot and cold too easy! Perhaps most women with high numbers of sexual partners are just all really bad judges of character and fall for the wrong men? So does that make us all that bad? Does that mean that we should be branded as sluts and doomed to bad relationships in the future where our men will hang on to the issue that we have slept with too many men?
Surely it would be better to judge a woman on her individual case and her personality? Yes some women may have sex purely for the sexual gratification and dont see any reason to associate sex with emotions, so perhaps you can judge them however you see fit. But as for the rest of us, who maybe have just made bad choices when it comes to men, or perhaps we have just not found the right man yet, surely you cannot judge us quite in the same way?
I think if I were in the situation where I had few sexual partners and my boyfriend has many - I would be a little disturbed by it yes but not so much as it would affect the relationship. While he may have enjoyed sex with these other women, it is now me he is enjoying sex with. If I believed he was a genuine, good person who made me happy, then why would a number make a difference? Yes we could run into his ex girlfriends, yes we could worry that they are not making an emotional connection with us. But really I would feel satisfied if I saw an ex of his, knowing that I have him now and she doesnt! As for the emotional connection, even if someone was a virgin you would never know whether they felt emotionally connected to you on a deep level - it is just born out of trust for that person and the vain hope that all humans have that we just want to find love and be loved in return.
So maybe the real issue is that deep down, men do not trust women? Unless she possess a virginal quality then a man will never truly trust the woman's feelings for him, or her potential future behaviour! And that nicely links back to the evolutionary theory, which explains why the man wont trust her (doesnt want to father someone elses kids etc).
I think us girls are getting a hard time here - it has become much harder to find true love or real love. back in the past when everyone had low numbers of sexual partners, it was much easier! There was not many choices for women - you had to basically get married and bring up kids, that was your life. So now where women are expected to work and be self-sufficient, it has changed the roles of each gender dramatically therefore men have changed a lot I feel when it comes to the way they treat women. I think that while a lot of the time women do just have more sexual freedom and take advantage of that, men also have a big part to play. If a man treated us the way men used to treat women in former generations then perhaps we would not have this problem now!
I think this will never really be fully understood by either sex - I can fully appreciate all of your views on this but I still find it a little odd that you would think this way about someone who you had a great relationship with! Surely the value of the relationship is way more than the issue of her sexual past? And I dont think many men would read what I have said in this post and accept it, I dont think it will make any man change his opinion on women that have slept with a high number of people because it is so deep rooted in the male mentality that no matter what, men will always think this way! I think men will continue to treat women worse and worse yet somehow still expect women to not sleep with many men!
Maybe going back to no sex before marriage is the only option! But that would require men to actually want to settle down, but today that is not something many men are willing to do! So we would have to wait until men reach what, 30, when they are mature enough to be ready for marriage? But then that defies all that is natural to a woman who is designed to be at her best childbearing age younger than that!
I think maybe men and women have evolved out of sync and society has only helped to worsen this gap. Men are still stuck in back in the dark ages acting of their primal urges, whereas women have adapted to the modern world. Society has made it ok for men to treat women badly and it has glorified the eternal bachelor, whereas for women its ideals seem to be stuck between modern independent career woman who is also a virgin and a great cook!
So basically us women are screwed!
...............................
A
male
reader, Code Warrior + ♥, writes (4 September 2009):
While I agree that evolutionary forces play a role, I think it is a cop out that avoids the intent of the author's original question to her partner in debate.
I believe that her intent was to discover an emotional rationale for this need of guys to know about her past. That intent was usurped by a scientific explanation that she bit on and pursued.
While the debate may be interesting on a purely academic level, I seriously doubt that anyone thinks along those lines when they ask that question.
As for the alpha male theory, alpha males are no longer a static set of men. This may have been the case when our life spans were short, but our life spans are now 3 times longer than the "cavemen" on which the premise is based, where a life span of 20 to 30 years was more the norm.
Because of our increased longevity, who is considered an alpha male changes over time. Men who may not have many opportunities in their youth may well become alphas later in life as training and experience over a long period of time result in the development of a superior skill set versus the alpha males of their youth.
However, I digress....
The real issue is the emotional issue. For me, there are 2 main issues that make promiscuous women unattractive:
Issue 1: Deep Emotional Connection.
I am not a guy that seeks to have large numbers of sexual encounters. I prefer to have a woman that I can make love to as opposed to having sex with. A woman with a lot of sexual partners is a sign to me that she does not appreciate the intimacy in the act of making love and is therefore not likely to connect with me on a deeply emotional level.
I find the emotional aspects of talking before and after as well as the cuddling to be essential to the emotional well being of the relationship. While I also enjoy the act itself, I see it more as an expression of the deepest level of connection that a man and woman can possibly share. A woman with many sexual partners is not likely to have this viewpoint and is therefore unsuitable for me.
Consequently, I find cheating to be an EXTREMELY offensive violation that will result in an instant termination of the relationship and an utter and complete loss of my love for her. The pain I would feel for the violation of our intimate space is unacceptable, intolerable, and the trust will NEVER be given back again.
A woman with a large number of sexual partners is not likely to feel this way about the intimate space and is more likely to de-value it and cheat without consideration of it.
Issue 2: Male Pride and the potential for dangerous encounters with a woman's ex lovers.
As guys, we know how women are talked about by us when we are talking to each other. "I hit dat" to use the common vernacular. We also know what low amounts of respect we have for promiscuous women. Even guys like me, who do not wish to experience large numbers of sexual encounters, clearly understand the guys who do.
This is why we are so protective of our sisters when they are younger. We don't want them to be treated as common trash and talked about that way by other men. We want our sisters to be treated in the way I described in issue 1. We want them to be respected and cherished by all men.
Make no mistake ladies, for the most part men are not impressed by your sexual skill. Posession of such skill makes a woman a tramp in most male circles and therefore not worthy of much more than a fuck and forget. A man may fuck and forget a woman many times, but that does not mean he is interested in anything more than sex with her.
Knowing that, I simply do not want to meet a guy that can say "I hit dat" about my lady. It diminishes her and there is ALWAYS an air of arrogance about a guy that has "Hit Dat" before you did. That arrogance is immediately recognizable by other guys even if no word is spoken. It represents an insult of sorts akin to "You get the sloppy seconds loser. I hit dat first. She ain't nothin but my lefotvers."
I have had direct experience with this. When my wife was my girlfriend, we told each other about all of our sexual partners. Neither of us had a lot, a few apiece.
We were fresh out of college and standing in line at her hometown bank when this guy she knew approached and said hello. He seemed pleasant enough until she introduced me as her boyfriend.
There was an immediate change in his demeanor that I sensed and he knew that I sensed it. "I hit dat". There was a smugness about him that I had EVERY intention of pummeling out of him. He had seriously underestimated the potential severity of my reaction and his demeanor changed yet again as he feared a physical confrontation with me and backed down. She confirmed what I knew and we never spoke of it again.
Women can sense many emotional clues that guys completely miss, but there are some they are clueless to. Women do not generally recognize the change in demeanor of men who are silently challenging each other until it erupts to the surface.
You can give this behavior an explanation based on evolution if you like, and it may apply, but the danger in such encounters is very real. Men who lack the physical capability to challenge such an aggressor are forced to accept the silent humiliation and both men know it.
Another source of potential confrontation is the jilted ex-lover who has not gotten over her and seeks to intimidate any man trying to enter into a relationship with her. A woman with a large number of sexual partners is more likely to have such baggage and I am more likely to be exposed to a physical confrontation as a result. Since I do not seek out physical confrontations, the increased potential for them is a negative attractor for me.
Maybe my feelings on this topic unique, but I can tell you that sexual promiscuity and skill in a woman are not attractive qualities to me. It is really not that hard for a man to get off and even the most sexually clueless woman can easily achieve this unremarkable feat. Consequently, a high level of sexual skill is not a quality I value in a woman.
Opinions vary. Now you have mine.
...............................
A
male
reader, troubledtoomuch + ♥, writes (29 August 2009):
There is something else that many people believe and that Yos has eluded to in most of his post. That is that 10% of men are having sex with 90% of women. If you don't agree with the percentages then make it 30% of men are having sex with 70% of women. I think there is a lot of truth in this. The 10% of men have had perhaps hundreds of sexual partners, while the other 90% of men have only had 1 or 2 or perhaps 5 or so at most. So these 90% of men are going to meet and fall in love with one of the 90% who have had 10 or 20 or more sexual partners. Those of us in the 90% have to settle for the women who have had many more partners than us.
Perhaps the 90% of guys have not had many partners because they are not attractive enough to attract the women. Perhaps they are shy and don't know how to pick up women at bars or clubs. Perhaps they have been taught as youth that it is wrong to have sex with many partners. Perhaps they see these easily available women as sluts and they are looking for wife material. Whatever the reason, they don't get many women in the sack.
Now the guy with just 2 previous partners finds a woman who he wants to date. He has sort of known her for a couple of years and she seems nice. They date and he likes her. She seems like a relatively conservative woman, but he finds out that she has slept with many guys. It doesn't matter if he asked, she just told him or he found it out from elsewhere. She slept with them on the first date. She slept with guys who she just met at a club. She might have had a 3some, but that is probably rare.
Now he has a dilemma. He is falling for this woman who he thought met his standards, but now he realizes that she is not that women. She has slept with 20 men, most just once or a few times. Why does she now want him? Perhaps he has a good job and financial future. Now he wonders if she is tired of all the excitement and is willing to settle with a boring guy just for the financial future. He wonders if she will miss all the screwing around with all these exciting guys and will cheat on him. Perhaps most of those guys were terrible lovers, but he will think that all of them were great and much better than him. She might mention that she likes some sexual position that he has never used and he will think that he can never be as good as those guys. He has fallen in love with a slut and doesn't know what to do about it. Does he leave her and give up this woman who seems to love him and treats him very well or does he stay with her and risk her cheating because she will be bored of his lack of lovemaking skills. It doesn't matter if he is the most affectionate man she has ever dated and that is what is the most important to her. He is still not up to her standards in his mind.
All of this bothers him. It bothers him because he cares for her and wants her to be the woman who he thought she was. He wants to be the one who she desires to have sex with, not those other 20 guys who he believes were great lovers and gave her dozens of orgasms or whatever. He thinks that she loved being screwed in dozens of positions or wishes she had that guy with the 8 inch dick again. Even if he is bigger than average at 7 inches, he will only think of the one guy who was bigger than him and wonder if she will want to go back to him or find someone else like him. These are the types of things that will bother the guy who has not had many sexual partners because of being shy or his morals or whatever.
People will say that he lacks self esteem because of the way he thinks and that the woman should avoid him. Well, in my opinion, most women who have slept with guys who they just met at a bar and have had many sexual partners have done so because they lacked self esteem. If she should leave him then why should he want to stay with her? Why should anybody want her for anything but sex? This guy wants her because she is not really the woman who she was when she did those things. Perhaps she has solved her self confidence problems or perhaps she has realized what she was doing was not the best behavior. Whatever the reason, she is now someone who is worthy of a guy who cares for her instead of just wanting her for sex. They are good for each other, but he still cannot get over her past, either because he believes it is wrong to act that way or because he is afraid that she will miss it and want that life again or because he is afraid that she will tire of his lack of ability as a sexual partner and seek someone more exciting.
...............................
A
male
reader, Yos  + ♥, writes (28 August 2009):
 The arguments being given are based on evolutionary psychology. The idea that we can understand much of our behaviour by looking at our evolution, and in particular whether certain behaviour made our offspring survive and multiply more readily than others. Darwin's natural selection applied to our brains, not just our bodies.
As it turns out, some human behaviour is very easy to describe in these terms, and some is not. Sex is particularly well described by evolutionary psychology, mostly because it is so directly related to reproduction and hence how well our DNA does in the long run. Trying to describe art, by comparison, via evolutionary psychology, is a lot harder. Other areas that evolutionary psychology explains well are family behaviour, and social behaviour around status and co-operation.
One thing to bear in mind about evolutionary psychology: many people attack it because they misunderstand it's ethical implications. Saying stuff like "you're saying that infidelity is programmed in our genes, but cheating is wrong, so you can't be right".
The fact that we have genes telling us to behave a certain way does not make that behaviour 'right'. What we have is many different genes telling us to do many different things, with different degrees of persuasion and force, and as conscious creatures we get to decide which we act on and which we don't. Evolutionary psychology does not absolve us from moral responsibility.
The other common mistake is the one the female point of view in the article is making. Here for example:
"but surely we have evolved past cavemen and cavewomen"
The short answer is... no, we haven't. Evolution happens very slowly. We are essentially physically and mentally hardly different from how we were about 200,000 years ago. We are essentially animals built to live in small nomadic tribal groups of about 150 people, placed in the very different environment of the modern world. In fact, many of our modern social problems can be well understood when you realise this displacement has happened. Like putting animals in the zoo: they have different problems than when they live in their natural habitat.
- - -
The 'male' point of view given in this article is fairly close to what the current mainstream opinion is within evolutionary psychology. Although his interpretation in places is different.
In particular the ideas that men are programmed to have a highly promiscuous 'phase' is not supported by most evidence. Likewise women do not have any particular 'phases' either. Rather, both sexes have various types of behaviour that emerge based on specific situations. Meaning, if you're in a certain situation you are more likely to behave in one way, and if you are in another you are more likely to behave differently. Pretty uncontroversial stuff.
The standard view of male and female sexual behaviour in evolutionary psychology is as follows:
Men typically subconsciously label women as either 'worthy of high investment, or not'. 'Girlfriend material' versus 'just sex'. Men are quite happy to have sex with either type... after all, both might result in pregnancy and hence more of our DNA being passed down. But we are choosy about with whom we invest our time and resources. We look for a mate of sufficient quality (basically as good as we think we can get), and a mate that we believe will remain faithful to us. She will get the lions share of our resources and support, and our children with her will get most of our attention.
The reason for this double standard is that, for men, having kids is very low investment. All it takes is 10 minutes... Since we don't have to carry the child, and we don't have the strong maternal bonds that most women do, we can basically sleep with a large number of women and have lots of kids, whilst doing little or nothing to support them.
However, since those kids won't necessarily do so well without their fathers support, a father will typically choose one woman to 'commit' to and focus his resources on that family. 'His family'. So men do generally want to commit, but they're also happy to have some low-commitment sex on the side.
Women on the other hand have no choice but to have a high investment in their child. At a minimum they have to carry the child for 9 months, and usually support it for it's entire childhood. For this reason, who they have sex with is much more important: because they'll potentially be looking after the consequences for the next 15 years.
Overall this is why men are keener on casual sex than women, and why women can 'choose' who they want to have sex with, whilst men have to work to 'prove' themselves. Because women are the ones with much more at stake.
Things get much more complicated of course.
Women actually need two things from a mate: support, and sperm. But they don't have to necessarily get them from the same person. The female infidelity pattern is to find a safe 'provider' type / 'nice guy' who they know will stick around and support them, and then become pregnant from an alpha-male with better DNA (more handsome, bigger, stronger, more charismatic). The woman subconsciously knows that hanging onto the alpha male is going to be difficult, since all those other women will want him and he's probably quite happy to oblige. So settling for a nice-guy is a much safer bet for long-term support. And then augmenting that with alpha-quality DNA if possible is a great extra.
(note: these are not the only patterns, just the main ones)
- - -
Knowing this we can explain why many guys get so hung up on their partners pasts:
The ultimate DNA disaster for a man is to spend 20 years bringing up someone else's kids without knowing. All his resources spent, and no DNA passed down! By contrast, a woman always knows she is the mother... whilst sa man never can be sure. (at least until DNA testing, which is incredibly recent, and so has no effect on our genetic behaviour).
So any sign that a 'girlfriend-material' woman might not be sexually 'reliable' is a huge warning light for a guy. A promiscuous past, whilst not necessarily a sign of a promiscuous future, is certainly more risky than someone who has been chaste.
This is especially a risk for a guy who is not alpha. Basically a 'nice guy'. This combined with a formerly promiscuous partner raises the fear (subconsciously) that he may being used for resources whilst the sperm is coming from a more prized source. The less alpha the guy is, the higher the risk, because the greater the appeal to the woman to get some alpha DNA if the opportunity presents itself.
This is why most men who have a hard time with this condition have limited sexual experience. Because they're not alpha males, they've not had the chance by and large! Usually the lower the number of sexual partners the male has had, the more his partners promiscuous past troubles him. We've seen this over and over on DearCupid. Likewise more alpha-males tend not to care so much, as they're confident about their sexual (DNA) desirability as well as their value as a resource provider.
Bear in mind also that our genetic behaviour evolved prior to the development of contraception and medicine for STDs. This is important because the horror that the male feels towards his partners prior promiscuity is not based on her having safe sex with no risk of getting pregnant. Rather it is based on someone having unsafe sex with a high risk of getting pregnant each time. This is what it was to be promiscuous over the hundreds of thousands of years our sexual behaviour evolved. Each of those past partners represented a potential pregnancy. Again... big alarm bells in terms of making sure the DNA in your children is actually yours.
The common reaction is also explainable: mainly jealousy.
Jealousy encourages the man to be highly possessive. He'll pay much closer attention to his partners actions, who she is with, how attractive she appears, and so on. This, whilst being unpleasant for both of them, does increase the likelyhood that her children will be his... if only because he's not letting her out of his sight! (or in modern times: reading her email and checking her phone).
- - - -
For me what's still open is why the reaction is so extreme. My intuition is that it's because of our modern environment that has distorted our natural behaviour somewhat. ie, the male brain is not working quite as intended..
In particular, the advent of contraception has made it possible for women to have lots of sex with no risk of pregnancy. Plus things like a morning after pill / abortion if things go wrong. Which is great for them in terms of sexual freedom! But unfortunately I don't think male's brains are built to handle this... our genes don't know about contraception. As a result, we are meeting more and more women with sexual pasts and are just not equipped to deal with it well. Especially the less sexually confident non-alpha males. Which make up most of us!
Also, the primary value of a 'nice guy' to a woman is in decline... as a resource provider. Given that women are increasingly financially and socially independent, men are just not needed as much as they used to be. As a result, that increases the insecurity amongst these men. After all, in a world where women only need men for their sperm, a few super-alpha males would get most of the 'work', and the rest of us would get very thin pickings.
- - - -
This has got really long, so I'll stop. But just to say evolutionary psychology has much to say about environmental factors. This especially has a strong effect on the level of promiscuity in a given population, and on young women in particular. It suggests that a woman (and man) will be promiscuous in specific circumstances, and that our modern culture has many factors that unintentionally encourage this.
...............................
A
male
reader, Danielepew  + ♥, writes (28 August 2009):
 I can but remember what Oscar Wilde once said: "I like men with a future and women with a past". Particularly is she's hot.
...............................
A
male
reader, troubledtoomuch + ♥, writes (27 August 2009):
You are assuming that there is a double standard here. You are assuming that all men boink as many women as possible when young and then want a virgin when they are through with that behavior and want to settle down. Perhaps that is true of some men, but if you were to actually read the many questions that men write on this subject here, you would find that most of them have slept with very few women, while their girlfriends or wives have slept with many men. I guess that does make it a double standard then, doesn't it? The women are allowed to screw around all they want and lie about their pasts. I assume that you think it is wrong for men to do the same. I do remember one question where a guy had dozens of partners and his girlfriend had just a few and he was bothered by that. Well, that is hypocrisy and if I remember correctly, I told him that. Men and women should be treated equally. If a guy has had many partners then he should not condemn his partner for doing the same. However, if he has used restraint in his relationships and sexual life then he has every right to expect a future wife to have done the same. The same goes when the sexes are turned around.I personally think that it is wrong for both men and women to be promiscuous. This does not mean having several sexual partners in several relationships, but in having 1 night stands and dozens of partners. I was brought up to think that it was wrong for both men and women to be promiscuous. Men who slept around were talked about as badly as women who did that. I believe that what I was taught was a bit too puritan, but the basic morals were correct.Have I ever had a 1 night stand. Yes, once. I didn't like it. There were no feelings there. The sex was bad. I felt bad about doing it after the night was over and I never wanted to do that again and never did. I felt badly for having used someone for sex. That was my mistake and I learned from it. From a lot of the answers on DC, it appears that many people don't have the capacity to admit to mistakes and learn from them. Doing what they want at the time and then lying about it is their solution. My wife and I have both made mistakes. We have admitted them and discussed them. Neither of us are completely happy with things that the other has done. Actually, we aren't happy with what we have sometimes done either.I believe that past behaviors, by both men and women, have their consequences. If a person has the courage or lack of control or whatever to behave in some manner, then own up to it, tell the truth and suffer the consequences if that be the case. If an individual believes it is fine to be promiscuous and then lie about it to a future partner, then they are likely to believe that it is fine to cheat and lie about it in the future. Relationships are not built on lies. They are built on truth, working out the problems through conversation and understanding. That is the hard way to run a relationship, but the only way in the long run. Cheating and divorces are built on lies, not loving relationships. Tell the truth and work on the problem. It will take a lot more effort than lying, but it is the right way.
...............................
|
