A
female
age
36-40,
anonymous
writes:My boyfriend met my family for the first time last week and we all went out to lunch. I was embarrassed because at the end of the meal, he didn't even offer to pick up the tab. Is that a red flag? My family did notice it and commented on it later. I'm terribly embarrassed. Reply to this Question
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (3 January 2014):
 OP, I think you missed the point. Manners and etiquette are not universal, but always depending from / related to a geographic/ cultural context. Many of us , probably including your BF, know how to navigate with reasonable assuredness our own context- understably, we may be unaware , or not fully aware, of what are the social expectations in other contexts, and at times, we may need to be "coached " in advance . Not " like a baby " , but like someone who , so far, has grown with different rules and got used to difference social nuances.
Your post is a case in point, - you give for granted that your BF SHOULD have offered to pay , because that's the rule of your country or of your environment, the one you have grown up with. But in other places, for instance in several European countries including ,but not limited to, mine, your BF's behaviour would be totally normal and if he had offered to pay , when he was INVITED by his in laws, it would have been seen as, well, well meant but quite tacky.
What's so strange about having different social habits and social codes ? It happens every day everywhere for everything. Just to make a stupid example, in California it's polite to say " hallo " and " hi " to everything that moves, including strangers you ride the elevator with, in Northern Italy or Switzerland that would be seen as weird and inappropriate. In France or Italy is normal and polite to compliment a man for his lovely, beautiful wife- in Tunisia or Morocco it gets you a dirty look (if not a punch in your face). It takes a little time, or a little " coaching " as you call it, to catch the nuances , because no, they aren't as self evident as you think- they are only self evident for the people who has always adopted them since the day they were born .
A
female
reader, CindyCares +, writes (3 January 2014):
OP, I don't think you can fault your bf for not knowing beforehand the intricacies of Indian culture and Indian etiquette . If that was important to you and / or your family, you should have told him in advance so that he could have looked good and not given offence to anybody.
No, it was not intuitive for him to offer to pay, he shouldn't " just have known " because , I can't vouch for all Western cultures and social environments, but for MOST of them, that would be totally counterintuitive.
First, for us the rule is , who invites pay. And offering to pay instead of your host, is not necessarily welcome or good manners. If it's clear since the very start that you are going to be treated by your kind host, offering to pay instead of him is seen as clumsy, rough or maybe noveau riche. It's a bit like showing off , stealing the thunder from who made the invitation, dismissing the value of his kind invitation by saying " Yo, what do you think !, I CAN pay ,- for myself and for all you guys ". If Western parents had invited him for dinner at their home, they would not have expected , that at the end of the meal the guy would say, " Great meal, thanks, now let me give you 50 bucks for your trouble " , that would have been totally uncouth. And it is not different if the meal happens in a restaurant. It may be different in your area, but, how was he supposed to know if you don't tell him ?
Second, the pecking order. In Western countries, in this type of first dinner together kind of thing, anyway it's the PARENTS who buy dinner, it's sort of implied even in lack of an official invitation. It does not matter if the boyfriend is older than the girl's dad, or if he earns 10 times more than him- the social assumption is that the alpha dog ( and as such the one who foots the bill ) is STILL the girl's father. When the " young ones " are married the roles can be reversed, but as long as he is a bf, not yet. So, what in your culture may be a sign of respect and honour, - in other cultures it's not, it would be a sort of subtle, subliminal DISrespect, like telling your dad " You are not the alpha dog, you are just an old fart , and I am the one who being younger and more " powerful " , will take care of your daughter AND you and your wife ".
There's an easy solution , anyway ( beside informing your bf of what's customary and expected from him )- HE can be the host and reciprocate the invitation and take all your family out to dinner, now that the ice is broken. ( And no, your dad does not need to offer to pay- your bf would be reciprocating an invitation. Once he is invited, once he invites, taking turns. Western style :)
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reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2014): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI lack manners because I expected a 47 year old, twice divorced man to know how to behave with potential in-laws? I should have presumed that he knows nothing and coached him like a baby? It's frankly ridiculous.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2014): What Ms Shameless is touching upon is very important but has got lost here and often does in many situations today. Etiquette and manners were originally formed for the sole purpose of protecting all parties involved from embarassment, NOT to display status, or hierarchical ranking or to assert or demonstrate power over others. However, in today's society, this original premise is all too often lost, most often with seemingly very 'well bred' people actually using 'manners' to put down another person rather than to protect them and gently guide them when necessary. All too often I've seen supposedly well educated people use 'manners' to publicly shame or humiliate another, often without knowing the full story and often by presuming that the person that they are trying to 'shame' is not aware of etiquette, when in fact they are even more well versed than the person trying to do the 'shaming'.In the case of this family situation, the OP should have checked PRIOR to the event that her partner was aware of their cultural stance on payment, in order to save him from embarassment. He should really have already known himself, but she still should have checked. Then the necessary 'ritual' of offering to pay and for this to be declined, should have been in place. In this case and given that manners are to save embarassment, it is the OP who lacks in manners ultimately, and this is derived from her family not making clear her duty to her potential husband. To be fair, he should really have known anyway BUT it is her duty to check and her family's duty to make sure that she is aware of thisl The same would apply if she was visiting her partner's family - she should be aware of any cultural differences but her partner should check beforehand in regard to anything that may cause embarassment to anyone involved.
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reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2014): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIt does make sense, actually. I was worried that he might be a miser because I thought that perhaps he didn't offer to pay because he was afraid that his offer wouldn't be declined! Of course, there could be other reasons like feeling nervous or wondering if he'd cause offence by offering to pay. I'm going to talk to him about it some day. Right now, I'm too hesitant to bring it up. Anyway, thanks for all your points of view.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (3 January 2014): Your follow up doesn't quite make sense of your original question... If you never intended for him to pay- but only ever to 'offer' to pay; then how would this make him a miser?
Put another way; if there was never any risk of him having to part with his money whether he offered or not, then how did this cause you to worry that he was a miser?
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female
reader, Ms_Shameless  +, writes (2 January 2014):
 I think determining him to be a "miser" would be stretching it if this was the test. The offer to pay may or may not have cultural influences, but the polite thing to do would be to offer to pay if his finances allow him to do so. If he did not have the money to pay, it would be best in order to avoid any embarrassment on his part if you would privately inform the head of your family that your fiance doesn't have the funds with him to pay for the meal. He should be aware or be made aware that he should always offer to pay if he can. As far as all the "going dutch" suggestions, I think that's fine if everyone else has that same kind of accepting personalities and this can be accepted without anyone feeling "weird" about it. It's up to the person related to the party doing the inviting to make sure payment is discussed quickly and privately to ensure no one gets embarrassed if there's a chance someone will.
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 January 2014): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you, everyone. I think I'll go with SVC's advice and remind him to offer to pay the next time we go out. I guess I expected him to instinctively understand these things!
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (2 January 2014): I don't agree with what jannipeg is saying. I've several Asian friends, originally from poor or not very affluent families and who now all have wealthy partners and/or husbands. The very LAST thing that the 'Western' male partners would do is NOT offer to pay - for them this would be a huge sign of disrespect to the family and to their partner. I think in Jannipeg's case there may have been an entirely different reason for the disagreement underlying the issue of manners.
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female
reader, So_Very_Confused  +, writes (2 January 2014):
 It's probably his family tradition like mine.. the PARENTS always pay the bill for dinner out.. however I see your point and he should have at least OFFERED to pay....
When my husband and I went out for dinner with my father I always remind him "daddy will pay but I expect you to offer"
My husband has VERY expensive liberal taste in scotch... one drink will run about $60.00. He normally has two with dinner. He did this last time we went out assuming he was going to pay for his own drinks... when he offered and my father refused I TRIED to be subtle and say "daddy J's drinks are VERY expensive let us pay for those at least" my dad refused. BUT we offered.
THE key is to offer (and be prepared to pay)
I understand your POV... and maybe you can say to him "darling I know you don't get it but in my family we do it this way.. then explain to him that he should OFFER to pay... he probably won't have to but he needs to make that offer"....
sometimes we expect folks to know what we want without a prior discussion.
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female
reader, janniepeg  +, writes (2 January 2014):
 Last time I pulled that cultural thing on my ex boyfriend the relationship blew up. My ex boyfriend was 13 years older than me and he felt that I should pay him respect rather than make him kow tow to my parents. When you are with a westernized person he expects you to treat him as an equal, even when he's older than you.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (2 January 2014): Sorry but I do not agree at all that the person who invites is the person who pays. That may be the standard 'rule' but, in matters of more refined or complex etiquette it is typically more polite to effectively override the 'rule' by offering to pay. This is like saying "I know what the standard etiquette is, but I am offering to show that I am willing to go one step further than that as a sign of my respect for you".
I do agree with the OP about this matter. For an English man with plenty of money not to offer is not a good sign, regardless of Indian culture or not. Even in British society this should have been an opportunity for him to show his good manners and good 'breeding'. A polite family will usually always decline. An impolite person will not decline but will only take. This extra bit of banter at the end of a meal may seem like an unnecessary or even pretentious ritual, but it is extremely important to go through with it.
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male
reader, anonymous, writes (2 January 2014): The person who pays is the person that invites.
He didn't invite.
He is not a miser because he didn't offer to pay.
He played his role.
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reader, anonymous, writes (2 January 2014): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI guess there's a cultural disconnect going on here. In my country, men offer to pay, no matter who asks who out. That doesn't mean they pay, it means they "offer" as a gesture. I make money in Indian rupees. He earns in UK pounds because he's English. I'm an Indian. He earns maybe 15 times of what I do. He's not short of money, so that's certainly not the issue. No, we're not saving for a wedding because it will only be a court marriage. He's nearly as old as my mother. We have a pretty huge age gap. In my country, we don't "offer to pay for one's own meal" while going out with family. One person pays for everyone else. Anything else is considered bad manners, unless you're out with friends or colleagues. Family etiquette is entirely different. No one expected him to pick up the tab. My family would have paid anyway since they asked him out. The breeding and manner issue arises because he did not even offer to pick up the tab. We consider that basic etiquette so he hasn't made a favourable impression on my people. That bothers me. I don't feel comfortable talking to him about this. No, I'm not putting off the marriage because he didn't offer to pay. It's because I expected him to have a certain sort of conduct and since he didn't quite fit the bill, I have begun to question my own judgement and feel as if I might have missed other things because people are usually a little blind when in love.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (2 January 2014): From your follow up, I think that you might be asking the wrong question... I don't think that this is 'just' about payment for one meal.If you're getting married in a few months, why is he only just meeting your family? Maybe the question is a more general how well do you know this man, and do you know him well enough to have agreed to commit your whole life to being with him?There are many 'excuses' that we could make for the meal- he was nervous, he didn't want to come across overbearing, just didn't think etc etc, but I really don't think that it is just about this one detail. How well did he get on with your family generally? Does he come across as overly cautious in life/ with money generally? Is he ever spontaneous? Does he excite you? -Is there a 'spark'?It could be that right now is a good time to find out a lot about what you both consider core principles in life... do you have traditional value/ do you want children/ do you have an urge to travel / what are your core spiritual beliefs etc etc. Really go into depth for as much as you need to make sure that you know each other as well as you can and also that you can communicate as openly as you need to... Because if this were just an isolated concern; surely you'd be able to address it with him directly? It's a nervous time if you're not 100% sure, but maybe you just need to communicate as much as you can to reflect over whether there are bigger concerns or if this is a glitch which you can work through.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (1 January 2014): My daughter's boyfriend is in early twenties and the first time we met it was to take him and my daughter to her graduation celebration dinner. There's no way he earns enough to pay for the dinner but he sweetly offered to do so and I if course declined. It was a very sweet gesture that I appreciated. I do understand why this would be important to you.
However, in his case it doesn't make him at all perfect - there are other things he does or fails to do that I don't like at all.
My point is, I suppose, that it is almost impossible for any young man to get everything absolutely right in a family's or parents' eyes.
What is more important is your own response here - it meant a lot to you and was enough to make you doubt things - the mind has a curious way of finally signalling something clearly to us that we may have been overlooking all along. Think back and ask if there are other things he does that give you a similar feeling or if this really is a 'one off' . If it is the latter, try to discuss it with him and see how he responds - I he is happy to take in board your views and offer next time then it is a good sign. If he gets defensive it angry it is a bad sign. It would raise doubt in me, but not in others- only you can decide.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (1 January 2014): That's pretty unfair to expect him to pay for you all. He earns more.... So what???? I can't believe you want to "step back and observe" about your wedding just cause he didn't pay!!!!!! Maybe every penny counts since you're saving for a wedding??
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male
reader, olderthandirt +, writes (1 January 2014):
 The situation is always a fluid one and filled with ridiculous body language and assumptions when it comes to "picking up the check" It is a high anxiety moment for all. The ONLY Good solution is to agree before hand before ordering that it is "Dutch treat". i.e. seperate checks please. Your boyfriend may not have had any funds to pay the bill with but too embaresssed to say so. I'd be a little slow to label him a miser. Being a miser is not a bad thing anyway.
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female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (1 January 2014):
I don't think this is something to postpone a marriage over but next time kindly suggest that he treats your family. He might not see it as a big deal as to who treats who.
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reader, anonymous, writes (1 January 2014): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIt was actually a meeting between my sister, mother, my boyfriend and me. Dad wasn't around. My sister paid. I did offer to pay but she refused. Even if he had offered to pay, they wouldn't have let him. What bothers us is that he didn't even offer it.
He treats me well on a daily basis. We share most expenditures. On dates, we take turns paying, so it's mostly even. Yes, he has a house and a car. He earns more than I do.
I do know that he cares about me but somehow this thing is disturbing me. The problem is that we're supposed to get married in a few months but now I feel like I ought to step back and observe him before arriving at a final decision.
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female
reader, Anonymous 123 +, writes (1 January 2014):
 Well if he was meeting your parents then he probably didn't want to offend them by offering to pay. I think he assumed that since your parents are taking you guys out for lunch, they are the ones who would be paying.
Other than this, has he given you any reasons to think that he's a miser? How does he treat you otherwise? How do you deal with money issues while out on dates and on a daily basis? Who does most of the paying?
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female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (1 January 2014):
I would be curious to see how he treats just you on a daily basis before judging he's a miser. If he makes good money and can afford a house and a car then I would say he's a miser. Either he is clueluess because this is the first time he had dinner with potential in laws, or he doesn't have the money.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (1 January 2014): It sounds like your family have expectations regarding social etiquette that your partner does not share. He should at the very least have offered to pay for his own meal. If he could not afford the bill for everyone or did not invite everyone / initiate the meal then perhaps I can understand it. Perhaps you could watch out for other indications about this kind of thing and see where things go.
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female
reader, jls022  +, writes (1 January 2014):
I don't think he should have had to offer to pay for you and your whole family, but I think he should have offered to pay something towards it. At least enough to cover his own share. Did he do that? Why do you think he should have paid for everyone? That would cost a lot and he might not even have that much money to spend.
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