Hi, I am a 22 year old virgin and have spent years trying to make myself attractive enough to be able to have sex. Ive transformed the way I look, started going to school parties,even started drinking at them even though I dont like alcohol.Im not what girls think of when they think of a one night stand. Im 5'8, not that loud, and not that good with sweeping them off their feet.Ive started to lose interest in aspects of my life I enjoyed. Mainly med school and soccer. I just see them as pointless if I cant get a girl to want me. This is purely sexual. After some women I know have had their fun Im sure they'll see me as a stable option. And it sickens me. Because I'll never have sex unless outside of a powerplay marriage situation where it could stop forever at anytime.Ive been called nice by many of my female friends and have told my closest one that I hate the word. I wish I could shake the women I know and tell them to never call me nice.Ive been here before but have been absent for months to be in therapy. It hasnt helped. Great psychologist but I dont think hes ever had a case this bad.Im also incredibly stubborn in my resolve to fix this. I wont use prostitutes and have written off long term relationships until I attract, seduce, have sex with enough women to make me feel desirable. I dont believe a long term relationship would help me. Most recently, I went on four dates with a girl that I knew since childhood. I tried on the third and fourth date to get a first kiss. She gave me her cheek both times so I didnt call/text her anymore.I need some advice badly. This issue has pervaded into my school work and I'm barely passing. Last week, at a Halloween party I went as a stripper and, with some encouragement from friends, danced on top of a table while drinking more alcohol than I ever have in my life. Im desperate to get noticed.Please.. Men, what did you do around my age to get laid. Women, what works and what doesnt? Women, if you looked for a one night stand what would you look for?
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reader, haveiafuture +, writes (12 November 2015):Hi OP, I didn't know it was you who posted the other questions. I really feel sorry that you are still conflicted over this. But judging from your posts, I have come to summarize this. You are an overachiever who is extremely conscious about how others perceive you. Or perhaps how you perceive yourself. It sounds as if you are very insecure. I don't really think you are really that shallow. Lots of guys your age only want sex and nothing more.
I think you should work on your underlying issues first. When you are ready for a relationship, everything will come naturally. Find a girl you really like. If she really likes you, you guys will get to the next level of your relationship. 4 dates is too early to judge whether she likes you. Does anybody else agree with me?
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reader, BrownWolf +, writes (12 November 2015):
This is not about religion...it is about common sense...which is not that common.
Let me put it in a way you may understand... If you are hungry (want sex), you would go to a restaurant (woman). If you go in with the RIGHT frame of mind, and attitude, they are most willing to help serve you. If you go in with a nasty attitude and WRONG frame of mind, no one will want to serve you, and most likely ask you to leave.
Guess which attitude you are going in with???
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reader, anonymous, writes (12 November 2015):being 27 and never had a girlfriend I feel your pain and frustration, there are times I hate being male because I was dealt with the card of having to approach and make the first move, be the initiator.
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reader, BrownWolf +, writes (11 November 2015):
I Love this..."Ive transformed the way I look, started going to school parties,even started drinking at them even though I dont like alcohol."
You have transformed everything except the way you think and use your brain. Here you are exactly the kind of man women hate...A typical, hormone driven, self centred young man, who wants sex as payment for his attention. You are the kind of man women run from...and you can see, you are doing a great job of keeping them away from you.
What is virginity??? Do you know it's purpose? Of course not, nor do care to LEARN what it means to be a virgin. Do you know the purpose of sex?? Nope...nor do you care to LEARN it purpose either.
If you cannot LEARN the basic needs of a woman FIRST...what is the point of having a woman??? Every woman has needs...even if they have had sex a million times with a million different men. If you do not know the basic rules, you will never be the the million and one guy.
Basic rules is...Treat her the way you want her to treat you....That would be easy to say to someone looking for love, and not some sex crazed man looking to get his d*ck wet.
Doing the same wrong thing over and over and expecting a winning result makes you a fool.
Learning to do the right thing and start behaving in the proper way that makes you wise, and someone to hang on to.
Start by learning what kind of man a woman wants. Do not ask girls your age, because most of them are still trying to figure that out themselves. Ask older women...and I bet they will tell you they want a man that is completely opposite to how you think now.
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reader, jls022 + ♥, writes (10 November 2015):Hi again OP. First of all I really hope you don't feel that you can't keep coming to us for advice because that's what we're here for. However, it is sad when we are unable to help people despite our best intentions which is all I was trying to say.
Anyway thanks for posting a follow-up, that's really helpful. I'd like to comment on some of the things you said this time as well:
'I know I would ponder why only one girl ever liked me enough to have sex. If I married the next girl, I would be desperate and lose her. The casual sex before marriage is a way I could feel wanted without being desperate with a long term girl. It could better prepare me for a long term relationship.'
Why are you so fixated on marriage? The choices aren't only 'one night stand' or 'marriage' OP. In fact chances are you wont marry the first person you end up in a relationship with. As I said before, most people build up experience through shorter term relationships rather than one night stands.
And again, the desperation thing can ONLY be fixed from within. It pretty much comes down to the fact that you don't think you're good enough to get a woman, so when you do you feel like you have to hold on to her for dear life. Which as you realise, would likely push her away. You think casual sex will make you realise that other women find you desirable, but that's not the right approach. Basing your confidence on anything external puts it out of your control, and therefore it can be taken away from you at any time (for example if you get rejected).
But if you can get to the stage where you realise that you're a catch (which you are), then you'll know that if it doesn't work out there will be plenty more women out there that will want you because you recognise all of your good points and know you have a lot to offer. I'm afraid that's the hard part that requires work, but once you get there it makes everything in your life better (I'm speaking from experience here).
'I also need to be wanted not for stability but for sex. That girl I went 4 dates on didnt want to kiss me by date 4. 12 total hours of date time. So we clearly were a terrible match sexually. I expect to have a lot of sex in a relationship, esp to make up for being behind, so that was a bad sign.'
Right, this is again where I don't think you know the difference between men and women. Have you ever heard the phrase 'women look for love and find sex, men look for sex and find love'? That basically sums up the difference. You are assuming that because sex is your main objective, that it will be hers too. And not only that, but you assume that she is going to act in the same way as you do as well. Not so.
All you have to do is read the posts on here to see how different things are between the sexes. We constantly hear from women asking how to tell if a guy is only interested in them for sex because they don't want to be used and dumped. And the advice? Hold off. Don't do anything sexual too quickly. If he's actually interested in you he'll wait, if not he'll bail.
And actually OP, that advice was spot on for your date. You DID just want sex and you DID just bail when you didn't get it straight away. You assume she was holding off because she wasn't attracted to you (again a self-esteem thing I think) but it's much more likely that she was protecting herself from being a notch on your bedpost.
I've never got to 4 dates with anyone without knowing I wanted to sleep with him, but at the same time I won't do it straight away because often the guy will disappear afterwards and I'll feel like crap. Or the guy will judge me for doing it since I'm apparently supposed to be the 'gatekeeper' of sex. Which to those types of men, means I was supposed to save myself for special old him even though I didn't know he existed, but I digress...
'If shes very attractive she probably had one night stands and hookups with guys she only spent a day or a week with'
Firstly, you are generalising. I used to model to put myself through uni and I got a lot of attention from men, yet I have never had casual sex. Nor will I. The quickest I've had sex with a guy is 3 months into a relationship. Some of those relationships ended after 5 or 6 months, one after 6 years.
I'd actually say that the level of attention I get has made me even less likely to have casual sex. Trust me, there's nothing like being objectified, leered at and groped for 10 years to make you determined that only the most worthy men will be getting anywhere near you. Again, you are thinking like a man (obviously!) and assuming that the fact the opportunity is there means all girls will take it, when that's often not true. It's not for me or for lots of my girlfriends.
'I could only get any sex after investing far more time and resources. I hope you can see how that could cause jealousy, bitterness, and be emasculating'
Ah the old 'give to get' mentality. That is a problem OP. You are again focussing on your wants only, and thinking that after a certain level of 'investment' you deserve sex. Well no, I'm sorry that's not the case. A woman will have sex with you when she feels inspired to do so, and regardless of what many men think, that rarely has anything to do with the amount of money spent or how many hours you have spent with her. It's about how you make her FEEL.
It's usually pretty obvious when a guy is phoning it in and just pretending to be interested in us to get sex. You need to actually be interested in a woman as a person and not just for what she can give you. Make her feel special and interesting, not just sexually attractive to you. And usually OP, that can't be faked. She must ACTUALLY be interesting to you for you to pull that off. So I'd suggest you start dating and getting to know women because it's just fun to meet people and see if you click, rather than pretending to listen while mentally counting the hours until she gives it up.
'Attractive enough to have a few women interested at a time. So I know that I can be highly valued'
Dude your value as a person has nothing to do with other people and everything to do with how you view yourself. You need to value yourself before anyone else will. I do get where you are coming from here - everyone would love to feel like they were in demand from the opposite sex, yet often it's just not the way things are. So to base your self confidence on that is unsustainable and frankly silly. It effectively gives other people the ability to make or break how you feel about yourself.
I'd like to end my (huge again - sorry) post with one final thought. I'm not actually saying I don't think you should pursue casual sex OP. I'm saying you shouldn't pursue it right now.
You see you have things the wrong way around. You think you need sex to increase your confidence, when you actually need confidence to increase your chances of having sex!
At the moment you are coming at it from a place of need and desperation, but as I already said, people don't want to feel needed. No-one wants to be a means to an end. Just as you say you don't want to be picked for stability only, women don't want to be picked as a sex object or ego boost. Everyone wants to feel special. And everyone deserves that too actually. So don't use people. Put in the work, get your shit together (for want of a better phrase) and only get out there when you are in a position to offer these women something in return.
When you reach a point where you really, truly want to have sex with someone simply because you want to enjoy the act of giving and receiving pleasure rather than because you have your own agenda, then you will be ready to pursue any type of relationship you want.
I wish you the best of luck.
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reader, jls022 + ♥, writes (9 November 2015):Hi OP. I remember all of your other posts on this and I'm sad that you've not listened to any of the advice and are still stuck in this mindset.
I'm guessing you won't listen to this either, but being the optimist I am I'll give it one last try to explain where you are going wrong:
1. It's all about you. Your wants, your needs, your desires. What exactly are you offering women out of this? The chance to be used and discarded? All people, male and female, hate to feel like they are being used. I hear many men say 'well the girl will get sex too', but that's not what the majority of women actually want. I also hear men say 'but I see women have one night stands all the time', again not acknowledging that often women do that because they think it will make the guy like them. Or for a million other reasons that are nothing to do with wanting to get laid. Granted, some women do want casual sex, but a large majority are looking for the exact opposite - to feel that men are interested in them as a person and not just a sex object. So my first piece of advice is to stop focussing on what you want and start thinking about her as well.
Which brings me to:
2. You've discounted relationships of any type. You do know there is a middle ground between long term relationships and one night stands right? In my experience, most college relationships lasted a maximum of 6 months before they ended. So why not start seeing someone casually and see how it goes? If it ends after a few months you can then do the same again and build up experience that way like most people. Actually I know exactly why that's not acceptable to you but I'll get to that later. Oh and all this chat about power play marriages?! Dude talk about putting the card before the horse!
3. You're desperate. Desperation is a horrific turn off. People want what is highly valued, and being desperate gives the impression that you're not. It's like diamonds. People value diamonds because they are rare and as such they demand a high price. If there were people on every street corner shouting 'free diamonds, please someone take them off my hands I beg you!!', people wouldn't want them nearly as much because they would deduct that if people can't even give them away for free then they mustn't be worth having. It's the same in relationships. Men who are successful with women are so because they make the woman feel that SHE is the most valuable 'diamond' of all. Whereas desperate men make women feel that she'd be good enough for now because he's horny, but actually so would any woman with a half decent rack. Again, people want to feel special! This is not rocket science OP, it's basic human nature.
However, none of that actually matters in all honesty. The crux of your issue is, and always has been this:
4. It has nothing to do with sex and everything to do with your low self esteem. You don't want to lose your virginity, you want to be the top dog. The 'alpha' male that all women want and all men are jealous of. But I'm sorry OP, the world doesn't work like that unless you are perhaps a famous movie actor. Like 99% of people in the world, you are a regular guy. While I'm sure you do have a lot to offer the opposite sex, you are not an adonis. There is no magic formula that will make women turn into a quivering mass of hormones at your feet, and the sooner you accept that, the better off you will be. That's why relationships are unacceptable to you. Instead of realising that getting to date number 4 means that the girl must like you, you get mad and feel disrespected because you want her to be unable to control herself in your presence and throw herself at you after 10 minutes to make you feel like the stud you so wish you were.
You sound like an extreme perfectionist OP, which can be an immensely good thing (I mean you're in med school), but also a curse because it's much harder to accept things as they actually are. That no matter how much you wish it were true, you are simply not that guy.
You say therapy hasn't worked, but I think that's because you are completely unwilling to change your thinking or work on the real issue here - your self esteem. You have decided that you need to be seen as a stud to have any self-worth, and you reject any other lines of thinking because they are not what you want to hear. And I think deep down, you think you just need that magic line or trick and you'll be able to turn into that stud. But you won't. It's not you, and you need to start accepting that.
My biggest fear for you OP is that you'll go through life refusing to even attempt to change your thinking or build up some real self-esteem and you'll end up alone, bitter and miserable. You need to stop writing off women who actually like you as if the fact they see you as a nice guy means they respect you less in some way, and realise that as with the majority of people in the world, we have to work with the cards we have been dealt and stop thinking we deserve something just because we want it. I do wish you luck but I fear this will have fallen on deaf ears once again.
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reader, anonymous, writes (9 November 2015):Ok bro, I relate to you I had a similar problem in a previous lifetime. Like you, I was desperately hitting on women and being nice to them trying to get a girlfriend. I had my first "girlfriend" at the age of 29. After dating for a year she asked to "break up" though we never had sex once. She was not only using me, she was cheating on me as well. I got really frustrated at that point I told myself I had enough of being used by women. So I went to escorts to relieve the sexual part of my frustrations. I did this on a weekly basis. Surprisingly after starting this lifestyle, women started noticing me even throwing themselves at me. It was because I was for the first time in my life ignoring women and didn't care what they thought of me. I had the weekly hookers to look forward to, I was content enough with my life. You see, women can sense the desperation when you are trying to please them. It seems counterintuitive, but to attract women you must ignore them. Really like reverse psychology. Incredibly hot women were pursuing me and hopping into my bed on the first date. One night stands. I wasn't using them for sex I really liked the women I slept with, they just stopped returning my calls and flaking out, so I just moved on to the next person because I told myself I got no time for their mind games I got my own life. Anyway after several women I found my true love and married her. She was actually my college crush that kept ignoring now she says I am a different person because I am more confident and not the insecure man I used to be. I was not proud of my prostitute days, but I told her she was actually cool about it. I guess like me your too desperate I am not telling you to go fuck some prostitutes, just take a step back and do the things you like, find some hobbies, make sure you love yourself first. You will find that chicks will come to you when you have found yourself. Also go do some research their many books on how to pick up women and learning to become alpha you can find these easily on the internet I didn't know any of these during my days I had to figure them out myself. I am only 5 feet 6, bald and I look like Simon Pegg so if i can do it so can you and stop being a whiner and wussy. All the best :-)
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reader, YouWish + ♥, writes (9 November 2015):I read your entire message and was prepared to help steer you until I read this:
You said: " I wont use prostitutes and have written off long term relationships until I attract, seduce, have sex with enough women to make me feel desirable."
Uhh, WHAT?! That's the equivalent of saying that you want to learn to drive, but you won't drive a car that has gasoline or tires in it! You mean to tell me that you have to USE and discard enough women to make you feel good about yourself before opening your heart to one??
The other thing you said is that you're afraid that the only sex you'll have is in a "powerplay" marriage where she can stop the sex.
You're right. You are messed up, and your problem is that women see that in you. Your views on women as relationship material is messed up.
In your case, and I usually suggest otherwise to desperate men, but there are exceptions to every rule: Use a prostitute, because you want sex to be a transaction, and I wouldn't want the fact that I suggested you use an unsuspecting woman to be on my conscience. USING people hurts. A prostitute at least KNOWS it's a transaction, and if your life is in such free fall where you blame dropping out of med school or soccer on not getting laid, then it's a good investment.
I'll tell you this: You could have sex with 1,000 women, and it won't make YOU feel desirable. You have a black hole in your heart called a low self esteem, and no amount of sex will fill it if you're so determined on not wanting to. That's all your "stubborn" really is.
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reader, Been there Now over it +, writes (9 November 2015):It sounds like you are around women, so that's a good start on finding one.I would just be yourself and not doing things outside your character just to get noticed. You certainly got noticed when you dressed like a stripper and danced on the table top, but it didn't get you anywhere. I know guys who could do that and get away with it. But these just the kinds of people they are. It sounds like you are more the cerebral, and that's a turn-on for girls, too, especially as they get to marrying age and want a guy who is stable and can provide a good income...dancing on table tops is much less a requirement.And play it cool, like you're "too big for the room." Years ago there was a super hot girl who worked in the same large company where I worked, but in a different department and on a different floor. She was very sociable and had all the guys flirting with her and drooling over her. I thought the guys looked sort of stupid and I made it a policy to say hello to her but nothing more. In about a month, SHE invited ME to the company holiday party and we had a relationship for some time after that. It sounds like you are dressing stylish and looking your best. That'll help, just don't over-do that.Good luck!!!
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