A
female
age
36-40,
anonymous
writes:I'm in a relationship with a lovely woman who has a 9 year old daughter whom I absolutely adore. She is a great kid, but has quite a problem when it comes to bedtime. And it is driving my gf completely insane to the point she is at her wits end.Her daughter just will not go to sleep or stay asleep (she's diagnosed with ADHD, by the way, if that helps at all). She throws a hellacious fit when she tells her its time for bed. Her bed time is 8:30 every night, yet she has a meltdown every night. She refuses to stay in her bed and knocks on her door every 30 seconds. So she goes and puts her back to bed. She's tried laying with her til she falls asleep, reading to her, etc. Nothing works because the moment she gets up to leave, her daughter hears her, and pops back up screaming not to leave, then starts pounding on her door, screaming. If she's lucky enough to actually get her to fall asleep at a regular time, she inevitably wakes up in the middle of the night and starts knocking again. And so the pattern begins again. She puts her back in bed and she knocks again and again. all night long. And to the point where her daughter starts screaming and having full on meltdowns. I'm not even sure her daughter knows what she's even knocking on her door for. It almost feels like a compulsion more than anything. It just escalates to her screaming and pounding at her door to let her. My gf is basically in tears after four hours of emotionally dealing with it all.She's grounded her. Taken toys away from her. She's tried positive reinforcement with rewards. She's tried so many different things. Nothing works. She just simply cannot keep her in her bed and get her to sleep. I suggested melatonin to her. So we are going to see how that works. Also, she sleeps with a rather bright night light on. I suggested reducing the light as I know light effects sleep in many different ways. Anyone else have any ideas to try? In my experience, taking toys away or giving a reward has been a deterrent that worked for kids. It just simply doesn't work with her in the slightest. She just doesn't care in the heat of the moment. Thanks in advance for any responses.
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female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (30 November 2015):
 Thanks for the update!
And no, you are not back to square one. It just didn't work instantaneous as you had hoped. Such is the thing about kids (and many adults lol) they NEED to go over things a few times to "get it".
I would still have her GP/family doctor go over her meds again. Maybe even switch brand/dose.
And for the next week perhaps try and give her ONE/TWO "pass(es)" a night for getting up. That way she might try a little harder. By telling her she can't get up AT ALL, you kind of set her up for failure. This has been a ritual of hers for a long time, it will take time to change that.
I have OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I have certain rituals that I HAVE to follow. They may not make sense to others but they DO to me. It becomes second nature. When I was in my teens I was lucky enough to get CBT due to the combination of an eating disorder AND the OCD - and it was (if I say so myself) pretty successful. I used to was my hands non stop - they were practically raw. I would check locks 10-20 times a night and things have to be even numbers. Just to mention a few of my "rituals". I still wash hands a lot more than your average person, but it's cut down to "only" twice per time. So all in all manageable. I only check locks twice before bedtime. And I can "handle" odd numbers.
If your GF's daughter is adhd she is probably on the higher intelligence end of the spectrum too - which means she might need more challenges, but IF she also have a touch of OCD'ish (she doesn't HAVE to have OCD to have obsessive behaviors) - maybe some CBT can help her too. So again, I'd say talk to her GP/family doctor.
Does she do any kind of sports? Because that might also be an idea. Wearing her out physically can also help.
A
reader, anonymous, writes (30 November 2015): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionEveryone gave fantastic, very well-thoughtout advice. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.
An update. The other night, all three of us had a sit-down and discussed everything. I asked her if she could explain to us what exactly she was feeling and why. She gave us some insight as to her reasons for her obsessive getting up. She said she feels like once she goes to bed, we are still up having fun. And so she winds up feeling left out. She feels she is missing out on all the fun. I tried explaining to her that after she goes to bed, it's not necessarily 'fun' that we are having. Often times I'm up studying and she's cleaning. But in her mind, she can't stand the idea that we are "playing a board game" without her, or something equally as fun to her. So she obsessively gets up to see what we are doing "behind her back."
I tried to explain that we were not just sending her to bed as a form of punishment. That we love our time spent with her (we all three hang out and have a blast during the afternoons after school), but just that she needed to get some sleep for school the next day (if she doesn't get much sleep, she is a zombie at school).
We decided to sit down and all three write some rules. She got to add some of her own rules so she felt included and like she had some say in the matter. She also got to pick a reward for the next day if she stayed in bed. We tacked the rules and reward to the wall next to her pillow, and told her if she had the urge to get up and see what we are doing, to just look at the reward for the next day and remind herself that if she got up, she would not get that reward. Even she liked the idea and was on board. It all seemed so promising. But sure enough, an hour later, she started getting up again. Sue for up 5 times that night. All that effort for nothing.
To answer some questions, if we let her pick her own bedtime or fall asleep according to her own natural internal clock, she would never fall asleep. Literally. She had been out of school for thanksgiving break this week and we spent all week together. Since she didn't have to be up in the morning, we let her stay up as late as she wanted. It was 4 am in the morning one night, and she was still raring to go. My gf and I told her we were exhausted and needed to get some sleep. She could stay up if she wanted, but we were going to have to crash. She threw a fit about us going to bed saying she didn't want to be the only one still awake. It baffled me. She doesn't like us being awake after she goes to bed because of the fun she feels she is missing out on. But then she doesn't like us being asleep either. I don't get it. Anyway, point being that at 4 in the morning she was still going strong. Sue would never put herself to bed if she got to decide when.
Cindy, I think that's interesting advice about her feeling threatened. That had never occurred to me. I do feel that it's leaning more towards the fun she feels she is missing out on, but that's something to maybe ask her about.
Thank you all! We are back at square one lol.
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A
female
reader, Ciar  + ♥, writes (27 November 2015):
 You've received some interesting insights and good advice here, but like some of the others have said, not knowing you well enough or seeing this for ourselves it's difficult to pin it down.
From what I've observed and heard/read of children diagnosed with ADHD these flair ups tend to occur when they're asked to do things they don't want to do, like schoolwork, be quiet, make their bed, clean their room, go to sleep etc. Conversely they can spend hours engrossed in things they do enjoy doing.
So, instead of expecting her to be in bed with her eyes shut by 8:30 let her pick something she can do quietly that won't disturb anyone else. Bedtime can become a pleasant experience instead of a dreaded chore that stresses and isolates her.
I second taking another look at her diet. Some websites recommend herbal tea before bed (decaf with no sugar!). That can be a treat for her.
You could try having a conversation with her, but at 9 years of age she might not be able to understand or articulate whatever is bothering her (assuming there is something bothering her), so I have to respectfully disagree with not accepting 'I don't know' for an answer. That would just cause more stress. Besides, she apparently doesn't hesitate to speak up when she does know.
What kinds of activities is she involved with during the day? Any sports? Does she enjoy sports or does she prefer to be engaged mentally?
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (27 November 2015): You need a bedtime routine.No sugar snacks before bedtime.Immurse her with a lavender scent.Lavender soap at bathtime,lavender laundry soap and dryer sheets for the bedding,lavender air freshners.Then at bedtime tell her she can stay up as late as she wants but she must stay in bed and read or look at books.My kids used to have like 20 books in bed with them.All my kids when small were always sound asleep by 6 pm.No electronics in bed at all just good old fashion books.
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female
reader, CindyCares  +, writes (27 November 2015):
 I think this kid's sleep problem is VERY related to her ADHD- considering that one of the main symptoms of ADHD in children is the diffuculty to fall asleep or stay asleep,- and also one of the main side effects of medications for ADHD ( so , alas, the poor parents, it seems, can't ever win ? ).That's an issue that needs to be thoroughly discussed with her pediatrician, if it has not been done before, and even better with a child psychologists, since ,ADHD or not, this kind of beviahour betrays an extremely high level of anxiety . In other words, I think the poor child is not being a brat , or throwing tantrums- she is in a state of suffering that peaks out at bed time, and of course it does not answer well to punishment or rewards , same as if you had trouble sleeping due to a physical pain ( say, a bad toothache ) , you would not give a damn about any punishment or reward which may come to you by your staying awake.
Anyway... I am so glad that Janniepeg brought this up before me, because I was thinking of comments like " ( eye roll ) yeah, typical over-indulgent, no rules Italian mom "... but, maybe the girl does not need to be in bed by 8.30 . Maybe it's way too early for her. Sleep is a very individual need , and it's still basically a mystery
for medical science too ( said by my pediatrician ). It's a myth that ALL children NEED plenty of sleep to be healthy . Some kids are wired for, and thrive with,much less than the official 11 hours ,or what is it , that's recommended for kids her age. My son was not hyperactive, and not even particularly rambunctious as kids go . He was a manageable, " nice " kid . Yet , he stopped taking an afternoon nap when he was maybe 18 months, and always gave signs of getting tired much later than other kids his age. I tried for a short time to go by the book , and then ( with the approval of his pediatrician, mind you ) I just let him follow his natural rythms . Of course that meant having him underfoot longer than other parents had theirs :)- then again, like I said, he wasn't too rambunctious, particularly at 9 y.o ; he would read or play with Legos or watch TV with us etc., so it was basically company, not an ordeal . And anyway, personally, ( that's just me ) I'd rather sacrifice a bit of " me time " , than having to face these emotional shenanigans every night and ending up with a child who has been FORCED to sleep " by the book, and my nerves totally shot in the process.
Having lived for many years in USA, I know that American parents are very big on respecting " bedtime " ( we don't even have a proper tranlation for this expression, :) ) and I know that suggesting them that their 9 y.o. can do just fine with ,say, 8 hours sleep is akin to suggesting them to give kids vodka and cigarettes for breakfast. But, if you think about it , sleep is , like most anything else, in great part a social, cultural and geographical construct. In Italy you will find very few elementary school children that go to bed by 8.30 ( and none in Spain, I guess ) because here the evening meal is between 8 and 9 , (at the least ) and it's often the main, or only occasion for a family to spend quality time together on a weekday.
( I and my son have retained the foreign habit of having dinner at 6.30 /7, and we are considered total freaks by everybody,lol ) . And obviously parents have to go to work in the morning, and children to school, same here as in USA ! So, does this mean here there's a whole juvenile population of sleep deprived, physically sick and mentally unhealthy individuals ? Obviously not. Somehow, our kids complete elementary and middle and high school, and they practice soccer or karate or ballet etc., and have a normal life in general- just the same as US kids ,but on less sleep . Makes you think, doesn't it?
Last thing,it could be, if your relationship with her mom is newish, and you have moved in sort or recently, that she has trouble adjusting to that and she feels left out. A bit jealous , in short. No don't tell me : but I adore this kid and she loves me back and we are the best of friends.
That, on a conscious level. But deep down, it may work differently, your presence on the scene may have triggered irrational fears in her of losing her mom's love to you etc. That's why, by disrupting your sleep and your intimacy, she markes her territory and reclaims her stake on mom.
There's a neighbour of mine who has two boys, one about 5 and the other 18 months, and she is having trouble with the first born, who has started waking up several times per night , and getting out of his bed, knocking on mom's door... you know how it goes. Interestingly enough, he only started doing this after that his brother was born- but not right away, when the baby was sort of an inanimate object sleeping all day himself- when he began walking, and saying the first words, etc... i.e., when he started needing and ATTRACTING their mother's attention more then before . I said that it sounded like a bit of sibling rivalry to me, and my neighbour said : oh no, impossible, X loves his kid brother, he is very affectionate and protective toward him.
Yeah, but love is complex and multifaceted, and what happens at rational, conscious level, is not necessarily whay goes on subsconsciously. A 5 y.o. kid is already smart enough to know that 's not "PC " to feel hostility toward his sibling, and that adults will dismiss or criticize his fear of sharing, or losing, in fact ,his main love object to a newcomer. So he will suppress these feelings - and they will pop up as "tantrums " and sleep disturbances.
Maybe your partner's child is going through something similar, and her keeping you awake at night is her subsconscious rebellion against you and her mom being what to her feels like threateningly close.
That of course would only apply if the nightly " circus " has started , or worsened, after your arrival on the scene
( which I think is a possibility- I don't think your partner could have let NINE years of circus going on. By now, she would either have found a solution- or totally given up the idea to put this child in bed by 8.30 !).
In any case, I would recommend you again to see a specialist, this does not sound to me like a behavioural problem in the simple sense that the girl has an inappropriate attitude which needs to be changed. It feels like there's more going on than meets the eye.
Anyway, both you and her mom, try to have the most patience and serenity which you can muster . Good luck !
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female
reader, Ivyblue  +, writes (27 November 2015):
 Have you thought about extending the bed time by an hour because ADHD kids don't need as much sleep time as others? Instead of just springing " hey it's time for bed" do you give plenty of notice several times leading up to it. Sounds like she experiences a lot of anxiety so knowing that the time is getting nearer and nearer may not be so much of a jolt. You could give her some power and control over the situation by setting an alarm or timer to go off at intervals and give heaps of positive reinforcement for doing so. During this time cut off all things that are stimulating such as tv,computer usage,x-box, foods and replace them with relaxing sounds, warm bath, lavender scent humidifier in her room. As a reward you could replace the bright night light with a lava lamp or small string of fairy lights. If mum has a hard time leaving the room then perhaps sitting in a chair near the door would be more helpful in getting away without disturbing her when she does fall asleep. I have a friend that has, hate to use the word but 'controlled' her son by making dramatic changes to his diet. Tuff gig, my heart goes out to you all.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (26 November 2015): Lots of things have been tried - but not sticking to one routine is also unsettling for the girl. Chose one thing to try and stick with it for 8 weeks at least so it has a chance to work. Don't expect any miracles overnight or even within a few weeks.Don't add any medication until a doctor has been spoken with. If she takes medication for her adhd then it may be dosage needs reviewing or another medication tried. Adding even a non-prescription medication or herbal remedy could interfere negatively with meds.Has your gf directly asked her daughter why she does this? It is worth a try, during the day and when it is just the two of them she should say "honey, tell me why you do what you do at bedtime" don't accept "I don't know" as a reply. Something bothers her or unsettles her and asking why and taking together about the importance of sleep and that she's creating a pointless fight, because everyone sleeps, might just make her feel listened to.All children need to feel listened to, understood, that they're trusted and that they are loved. Opening up honest communication could be a real start in this little girl realising she is listened to - which isn't to say you and your gf don't listen to her, children just don't always realise they're understood until you tell them directly!The doctor should be consulted too.
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female
reader, chigirl  +, writes (26 November 2015):
 And what does the doctor say, is this related to her diagnosis? Without knowing the mother or the child, or any bit about what's going on in your lives, it is very hard to give suggestions. You just say she's difficult/impossible to get to bed, yet you dont have any clue yourself as to why this is so. So if you can't guess at why, or how to solve it, then I don't think I can help. But I will try. Could it have something to do with the levels of sugar she digests every day? I know that in th USA, and do not take this as offensive, because Im being serious, you have a more sugary diet than in other countries. High levels of sugar for children will leave them uneasy at bedtime, hyper, going crazy, not getting rest, and not getting enough nutrition. When I lived in the states myself I was shocked by how difficult it was to find food thats not pumped full of sugar. So that would be my first guess. Eat veggies and greens and non-processed foods. And no late snacks and no dessert mid-week.
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female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (26 November 2015):
Sounds like one of my niece's children. Though she was 6 at the time but with the same drama every night. And her grandpa and two other aunties would go through hoops to get her to bed. It was a circus.
I think (personally) have set routines help, but there has to be a little give and take too. Which means at 8 pm it's shower time/bath time - after that a book, lights out and goodnight. But that may not work so well for this kid. So it's time to try something else. Over a week-end (since she doesn't have school, let her set her own bed time and see what happens.) 9 years old is a bit old to throw these kind of tantrums IMHO. So the mom should perhaps consider a therapist - because there IS something going on with that kid that is out of the norm - that she isn't handling very well. She is in 3rd/4th grade but acting like a Kindergartner.
I also think the mom needs to see the kids doctor. It's pretty obvious that the kid is not on the right dose/medication if she is THAT wind up at night. I have seen kids being put on Ritalin who REALLY didn't need it and it worked more like "speed" than anything else.
Most of the common adhd meds actually disrupt "normal" sleep patterns and DOES make it harder for kids with adhd to fall and stay asleep.
I don't think I would add other drugs (no matter how homeopathic/holistic/natural) until it's been OK'd by her family doctor.
Could also be that a nice walk after dinner will help her.
Maybe this can help?
http://www.everydayhealth.com/add-adhd/sleep-tips-for-adhd-kids.aspx
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female
reader, janniepeg +, writes (26 November 2015):
 This reminds me of an episode of Super nanny. The girl is the same age and would not sleep. The ritual of carrying her to bed, walking her back to bed continued 20 some times that she finally fell asleep, but at 12. It's a failure so I don't even know why they aired it. I am not sure if 8:30 is a good time. It's a good for parents, you get to have 2 hours of free time to yourselves but some kids only need 7 or 8 hours of deep sleep.
Adhd kids live for the excitement of discovering something new each day. It can be a science experiment, vigorous exercise, or games that make you laugh very hard. My son would bombard his head with useful and useless information through the internet, if I am not free or too tired to do things with him. Besides exercise, the only thing that makes him tired now is his teething. Adhd kids feel that their days are in vain if there's nothing interesting going on and therefore can't relax at night.
For your girlfriend, she must be so worried that you are going to leave her over this. The best thing you can do is to say her daughter is a great kid, and she is doing the best she can. You will work with her to figure things out and find solutions every time.
Simply telling kids what not to do would not work if there's no follow up with what she should do instead. She is not just going to sit in her bed and meditate just so you can have quiet time.
Sign her up with a sports group or gym class. Ask her what her passion is. Also she may be jealous of the attention that your girlfriend gives you. There's a fear that you would steal her away from her and abandon her. For it to work it has to be a three person team, not two tackling one to behave.
The kid grew up with the confusion of who her dad is. For all she knows dad may not care to be in her life or just a sperm donor. Now with you in the mix she is not sure if you are a mother figure, father figure, or just someone who competes for mother's attention.
It's my belief that with children, it only works if you devote yourselves to them, and not treat them as an obstacle in relationships. I know many still believe that kids should be seen not heard. Adhd kids are too smart to not let themselves treated as lesser beings. Discipline only works when kids are afraid of adults. And they shouldn't be.
For parenting there's style A, totally dominant and uses punishment. Style B, relaxed, and let kids do whatever they want. Style C, using lots of thinking and solution oriented. Style A breaks a kid's spirit and they grow feeling they are unworthy of love. In Style B, you get exhausted trying to satisfy their every whim. In Style C, you and your kid think of ways to solve problems and to live together in harmony.
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (26 November 2015): Perhaps not what you ideally want but has your partner considered co-sleeping with daughter? She is unsettled for some reason and its quite natural for mammals to sleep with their offspring. I co-slept with my mum off and on until i was 15. It was quite comforting to be together. It is why i co-sleep with my 5 year old. Basically allowing them to be as comforted as long as possible to ensure they are emotionally secure to be alone when they want.There are a bunch of supernanny shows on television (youtube?) that gives good getting kids to sleep advice. Often involues preparing child for going to bed (the rountine of going - timers, bath, book time etc) followed by saying good night and turning off light and going out. If they get up you put them back in bed and say its bed time then go out. The 3rd time they get out you put them back in bed with no kisses/words?? and sit in bedroom in dark. Every time they get up you dont speak, put them back in bed and you sit on floor again with black to child. Repeat until they give up and fall a sleep. Hellish first couple of nights but it the getting up period gets shorter and shorter til they eventually accept it.Latter seems harsh to me but it works as sends clearer message .
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