A
female
age
36-40,
*eady2bolt
writes:Okay - same old sad story - but here it goes. My husband and I have been together for 21 years. We were high school sweethearts. We have good morals, but we aren't prudes if you know what I mean. We have two daughters and I work from home most of the time trying to be here for our kids and so my husband can devote time to his career. His job may be changing to more travel time and I tend to worry easily about other women. He assures me over and over that I don't need to worry, that he hates how I think I am so unloveable, that he is proud of our relationship and would do nothing to jeopardize it...but here's the rub. He recently went out of town for a week to run a facility in another city and state. When he came home that week he talked about the female supervisor there, commenting on matters that had NO connection to her work skills. How little she was, her cute name, how her dad named her, later he commented about her highlighted hair...yuck. What he failed to mention was the times he bought food for her (a normal business expense, so why he lied about it was odd to me) and one night in particular when he drank during his dinner -- something he swore he NEVER did. When he went back for a second week to work at this location I found out - after he had left home - that he had shaved his privates. He has only done this once before when we went on vacation, just the two of us, and we looking forward to our time away for lots of uninterrupted sex! So, for me, I can only connect this behavior to one thing - an expectation of sex and his concern about looking good for HER -- not me, since I'm obviously NOT in the town he is going to! After I confronted him about his little lies, he told me that since I always twist things he didn't want to tell me b/c he was afraid I'd go nuts. He also told me he totally forgot that he'd had alcohol to drink while he was gone, and that the only reason he had shaved himself was b/c the scissors were out and he just thought it would be more comfortable. My radar is UP big time. I have given him stupid amounts of sex since he came home, told him that I would totally understand if he even had an emotional affair with someone else, but that I would even let him picture her if he was with me -- but I just don't buy his story when he tells me that the woman in question is "attractive" but that he is not attracted to her. He also said they have never even touched -- except for maybe the first time he met her and shook her hand. He also said he would be too embarrassed to get naked in front of anyone else anyway (sounds to me like he has been doing a lot of thinking about this sort of thing...). I figure at best, he was hoping for a hookup and it didn't happen. I am traveling with him next week and will get a chance to see her first hand, however he is going back alone the following week and I am going nuts thinking about it. What do I do? I have checked emails and IMs and his cell phone, but I think things have been deleted. He doesn't know that I know her cell phone number - I have found one call from her to him, the rest are all work calls and emails from her (with the content unavailable to me to read). I can't prove anything yet -- only that I feel sick inside that something is going on. Help!!
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female
reader, Devilish Angel +, writes (16 September 2008):
 All I know is that when I expect sex, I shave. I honestly believe that your man is cheating. I'm sorry. This is killing you and you need it out of your life and your child's.
21 years down the drain. What an ass.
A
female
reader, Ginalolabridga  + ♥, writes (16 September 2008):
 Hi,
Just wanted you to think about this my husband has a laptop which is for work i cannot access that nor would i want too bear in mind it is for work and the Company can check on what he is doing on this!
The Blackberry i would not worry about either the two go hand in hand now for most businessmen they need both and as they are Company Property as such they are never going to use them for personel use and risk getting fired are they? Just not worth it to them so i really don't feel you have to worry here.
I feel for you as i know what it is like not having trust anymore it is hard and for people who are lucky enough never to experience this with a husband/partner to really genuinely know what goes through your mind a lot of these issues are trust related and i feel somewhere you both have to meet in the middle here him helping re-assure you at every step and you in return trying to trust him again it is never easy to do this and i am not saying for one minute everything will go back to being hunky dory!!
Like most things you get what you put in back! and if you two could stop and talk more and try and solve all these terrible conflicts you are having and come to some arrangement that the re-assurance from him on every angle is enough to start you on the road to trusting again.
As for the travelling with his job i think that is something as a couple you need to decide where that will hinder any trust issues you are currently dealing with this may well be a choice your husband has no say in does he?
If he can work at home in the office as opposed to travelling is that something he could change to help you?
If not then you may well have to resolve to the fact it is his job it pays the bills etc; and as such you really need to trust him i don't think he will start playing away from home just cause he is away from it.
I do hope you can resolve these issues you seem real upset and totally out your head with worry that cannot be doing your health good please try and make time for yourself here i feel you are in danger of becoming his Co-Addict try and not become that you have your own life and must think of yourself you are spending way too much energy on this what are you doing for yourself here?
Try take some time out for this reflect on some things that are troubling you and talk to hubby he must surely see by now how you are traumatised over this and if he has any compassion he will be doing his utmost to re-assure you in every way he can i wish you well take care of YOU.
Ginalolabridga.
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A
female
reader, ready2bolt +, writes (15 September 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionGinalolabridga and ChiRaven thank you both for the solid insights about the company phone. I was starting to feel like I was treading on thin ice with that because I am so ignorant about how his company handles this stuff. When I was working I had a company-paid phone, but it was my phone and they just reimbursed my phone expense each month so I still had the bill sent to me. That is not the case here - the phone, and everything on it, is company property. The last thing I want is an awkward convo with his boss or someone from the head office because of a stupid misstep on my part! I asked DH to see if he could request his own phone records or at least have his account online as just a way to help me through this (he did say he'd do anything to ease my mind, right?) and I even gave him the email address of the corporate contact person. He didn't say "no" but he didn't seem overly eager to get it done either. I fully expect it will never happen. I could keep pressing him on this, but it is not a comfortable feeling to do so -- I don't want to become a nag. But I also don't know how to read his reticence -- it could be that he is still feeling guilty and knows there are incriminating things on his phone record or that he's dreading an awkward convo with the telephone account person about why he is requesting this access. Who knows - I just told him that if he gets the promotion he is up for and starts traveling all the time, the phone record is really the only thing between us that is hidden and I am not comfortable with that. He can see my records any time, but I cannot see his. His blackberry is so much a part of his world now that it would have to be surgically removed from him so I really don't see this as a trivial matter! In our otherwise open relationship where we can see anything - personal emails, IMs, etc. on each other's computer, etc. I think its only fair that I have access to that. Not that I will be in his business on a daily basis, but that if and when I should need it, I can have a look with his knowledge rather than having to sneak peeks. I tried to explain to him that a traveling job can take the best intentioned person and put them in a challenging place where they start to lead a double life. It is easy, and to some degree necessary, to become someone quite different when you are on the road and have no one to answer to - esp. not when you are faced with the burdens of kids, bills, fixit projects, a harried spouse every night of the week. I have traveled for work before (before we had kids) and know this, but this is all new to him and travel just sounds glamorous.I realize my request for his phone records may be a losing proposition. Once he gets promoted he will get a company laptop too -- one with passwords galore I suspect -- so there will be more walls. I guess this is the thing that is bugging me most -- the idea that, because of his work, there are going to suddenly be places I cannot "go" with him -- both physically and emotionally. I don't know how to breach that and keep my sanity intact. Does that make any sense at all? I am not normally a nosey person - I don't usually feel any need to be! It is just that in the history of our relationship we are always together and love being together. Nothing is off limits - not because of our insecurities - but because we just don't normally even think in those terms. We share everything and seek every opportunity to be together. Now there will be limits and barriers to that and I am scared by that - esp. given this recent matter. It was the first time he traveled to the extent that he will in his promotion and this is what happened. I feel like if I had not called him on it - it could have been worse.It comes down to trust. I know I love him and I want desperately to believe everything he tells me, but I am not a dolt either. He is a master of the little white lie - I know that much from our years together. He is also the kind of person who would rather live in denial than face conflict. Through all of this mess he has said he felt he has taken me for granted and is sorry for that. But he also says he has done nothing wrong other than to lie to me about his dinners with her. Of course, that was the only thing I was able to catch him on so bottom line, I have no other concrete information to work with if I don't have those phone records and I am beginning to believe that he won't confess to anything he doesn't have to. You all asked me what I would do if I discovered a truth that I couldn't live with. Leave, throw a fit, whatever. I have not answered that but I have not been clear at any point why or how I should answer that question at this stage. Seems to me that the decision to leave or stay is up for negotiation at any point and is not a foregone conclusion before I really know what I'm dealing with. I'll tell you what I told him though - I will stay if you want me and work this out, I will leave if you don't want me. I won't be your sloppy seconds, but I will do everything necessary to be your friend and if I have to take off the "wife" hat to do that I will. I told him I would give him space to figure out what he wants -- but he asserts that all he wants is me. That is the answer I am going to live with for now. The other answer I am going to live with is the fact that my husband can and will lie to me if he is feeling guilty, anxious or worried about something that he thinks might threaten our relationship. I don't know what else I can do.I know we can all be conflicted in our feelings and bear the burden of double standards in a relationship - but I think there are clear signals we have some work to do as a couple. I will have to be the one to pursue this "work" though as he just won't take that kind of initiative. That makes me sad right now. I don't think we can just hug and kiss and make up -- he does. Yeah - it seems like a whole lot easier to do that and let the rest go, but it doesn't feel substantive to me. It feels like a bandaid. I'd also like to thank DiovanLestat for her counterpoint during all of this. I think she must be a very unique person and at least is aware of how her own connection with other men can be easily misconstrued by their partners. I have also appreciated her straight talk with me that calls out my insecurities as being the issue - not his infractions. Who knows? I also really appreciate all the male writers, q1605 - your perspective is so important!! And also the women who have been through this nebulous (as well as more overt) situation with their own lovers. Someoneelse's point about thinking of this as an affair regardless of whether or not they had sex is a good one. I have heard that from some other friends as well - an affair of the heart is just as real. I think it is also a sign that we have some new ground to cover as a couple.If nothing else I am learning that our relationship is certainly not static! When I am in the right frame of mind, I see that as a positive thing!Thanks for tolerating my lengthy posts. I use writing as a way to process things - esp. now. We moved to our current residence less than a year ago and I have NO close friends or family here. As a result I was feeling super isolated when this issue popped up and also super naive. I am so thankful for you all!!!
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A
female
reader, Ginalolabridga + ♥, writes (14 September 2008):
Hi,
Just wanted to clarify about the phone i agree with ChiRaven if it is a Company phone be careful here i was referring to his own mobile phone it is easy to obtain records for this but a Company phone is much different.
My husband has a Blackberry that is a Company phone he uses it mostly for e-mails etc; but i can access it whenever i want and check through it if i have too!
I don't have any access to this billing as it is not for my use and he does'nt pick up the bill but what i will say is this if they are calling certain numbers way too often and out of office hours it can be picked up by the accts dept they are not meant to misuse the phone for personel use it is for business only.
My husband's Company has his password for that phone and can access it anytime so he is never going to do anything with that maybe your hubby is the same i don't know but i thought i should clear that up with you tread carefully.
Ginalolabridga
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A
male
reader, ChiRaven +, writes (14 September 2008):
 One word of warning about the phone thing. I don't know how things are now with the company where your husband works, but when I was still working in a corporate environment 15 years ago records for company paid telephones went ONLY to the company. Any efforts by anyone else to obtain those records were automatically sent to the company Security Department and treated as a case of industrial espionage, and the company was willing to actively prosecute whoever was trying to obtain those company records for theft of company proprietary information. And they probably would have won, too.
As I say, I don't know how seriously you husband's company takes such things, but do be careful. At the very least you could get him in serious trouble at work. Or fired. Or if they get really nasty about it, under US telecommunications law, you could be prosecuted. Essentially what you are doing is covered under the anti-eavesdropping portions of the communications acts. And since that is the company's phone, records regarding it are company property. Not yours or his, but the company's. You are no more entitled to them than you are to walk into their office and walk out with a computer. Or with papers showing their marketing plans for next year. The fact that your husband may have worked on either of those is immaterial.
Please be careful.
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A
female
reader, Ginalolabridga + ♥, writes (12 September 2008):
Hi,Good for you get the phone calls log/bill that way you have it in black and white he can't deny what is in front of him on a piece of authorised billing can he?That was how i caught my hubby out he denied all knowledge of anything untoward going on till i did my own detective work if the bill is in his name though you may have to write a letter to the company on his behalf just pretend you are him!! asking for a bill backdated they go back a year so you will be able to check every single number he has called.I wish you luck and don't delay with the bill!!Ginalolabridga.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (11 September 2008): Hi Madam,
Without wanting to discredit and call anybodies honour into question, I would ask you to take everyone's advice including mine with a pinch of salt. You say that all your friends partners have had affairs or bad marriages. Would it not be likely that they would have a vested interest in giving you advice that points to a marriage falling apart. Who is in the driving seat here, you, your suspicions, or your friends who give you advice...
Meeting her didn't set your mind at rest, asking your husband didn't help, talking to her just proved that she was guilty. Now you are demanding phone messages, emails and you are going to hire a private detective. What if these all turn up nothing. Will you feel safe or assume that they are still guilty, somebody is lying or nothing yet has turned up. Trust is lacking in your relationship, again I ask you, what is the evidence you need to set your mind at rest either way.
ChiRaven gave you a warning earlier.... "First big question: other than feel really terrible, what are you going to do differently if you find out that he IS involved with this woman than you're doing now? Would you consider leaving him? Confront him with ultimatums? Throw a fit? What?"
This has become less about your relationship and more about you proving you are right and they are lying. If the evidence of an affair turns up, then what do you do next. If they are telling the truth will you ever believe him, trust him or will you always suffer these feelings of doubt..
Assume that they are having an affair, and what your gut feelings are telling you are perfectly right.. The question is, what happens next. Will you forget and forgive or will you ask for a divorce. You can't rest until you get some proof of an affair, and your so deep in, that it must be an affair, because no explanation will do. Hire your private detective and for your sake, rather than your husbands, or your marriage, I really hope you find some concrete evidence and he really is having an affair, so you can put this to bed and move on.
Please keep us updated, I really would love to know if you can find something concrete to set your mind at rest.
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A
female
reader, ready2bolt +, writes (11 September 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionNo doubt I am making myself nuts over this. I so appreciate all the recent posts. I too realized after I made the call to HER that really, the call did nothing for my sense of security. She could care less about me and what would she have to gain by actually telling me she fooled around with my husband? I think the most fearful part is - do I really know him the way I think I do and can I trust my instincts? I believe firmly that my instincts are valid - no question. What bugs me is that my instincts would call HIS integrity into question. The truth is he has lied about his feelings for her and that he was not willing to come clean with me until I kept pushing, so our trust has been broken. It may be a mild crack compared to some, but for us, it is an indicator that our relationships deserves some shoring up at the least. I still have a few detective things to do - ugh I hate this. But after I called her yesterday, he called me within 20 minutes to see "how I was doing." My gut (and two of my friends) think DH and the OW are in collusion. I am fearing that she called him after my inquiry to her. Honestly, there were parts of her story that were almost verbatim to what he has told me. That wouldn't be a red flag except for the word choices being so close. Plus, he went back to keeping his phone by his side yesterday after he got home and I was not able to review his call log. Obviously, this isn't over. I am in the process of checking with a PI to see if I can get phone records. If that doesn't work then I am going to have to confront him one more time and demand that he show me his phone records - not just his phone. That is going to take some work to get (as it is a business account and he is technically not the account holder). If I see that there was contact between them yesterday immediately following my phone call to her then I have all the answer I need to know that they had at least a tight enough relationship to know I would question their activities together.
I guess that wasn't my last post yesterday.
Also - to someoneelse I too was worried that my oldest daughter heard my bawling craziness the other night, but she seemed bright and sunny the next morning. She is a highly introspective kid who does not hesitate to ask me if/when she thinks something is wrong. My husband and I actually don't fight - rarely raise our voices - but we do like to talk politics, etc. and get pretty passionate about stuff like that. Just our excited convos get her worried that we are fighting when we are actually in agreement so I know she would have come to me straight away -- or even gotten out of bed to confront us both -- if she had heard the mess. I really do trust that she is spared and believe me, I have said NOTHING to her. My other child is only 1 so she is blissfully unaware of anything else that does not directly concern her immediate needs - speaking of which she is chewing on crayons so I should go now!
Thanks again you all -- I will keep you posted although I am going to try to get some space for myself too so that I can sort through this. I feel like I'm obsessed and while I don't want to roll over, play the fool, hope that this will all go away and not deal with it, I don't want to let it consume me either. I feel like those phone records are really the last piece of the puzzle -- if he truly has nothing to hide and will do anything to prove that to me, then he will get the records and have them sent straight to me. I am resisting the urge now to just ask him when she called him yesterday -- I need to find that out for myself since I can't trust him to tell me anything anymore. But darn - it is so hard - you just keep hoping that the person you love will come back to their senses, come clean, and want to start over right away! Not this cat and mouse crap!
I think the post about the guilt and how long it lingers was really good. I will say the first few times we made love I initiated it, and he seemed like he felt he'd better go along to make sure I wouldn't be suspicious. Following that, he has looked to me each time to see if I was in the mood - but every time I called the shots, he did not, and while -- once we were going things were great -- there was all kinds of hesitancy, carefulness, etc. that did not exist before.
I am staying vigilant.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (10 September 2008): Hi Babes,
As you can see this is an international site, full of people from many different countries, of many different races and colours. We probably haven't helped you very much, because we are all different, we have differences in the opinions we provide.
We could assume that this young lady and your husband are lying, but then what will you do, how will you get them to admit the truth. Or we could assume they are both telling you the truth. If I was in a relationship, and I fancied someone, I would say exactly what your husband has said. If a woman telephoned me and asked me if I was having an affair with her husband, then I would have reacted exactly as this woman has reacted.
I would never have an affair, cheating and lying dose not sit comfortably with my nature, because I'm too direct. But if such a thing did occur, I would be thinking of the man's wife, and I would directly tell her the truth that she needs to hear. Lets assume that this lady is like me, should we believe her, or should we assume that things have happened that we cannot prove and have not seen.
Someoneelse has brought up some good points, affairs can last for months and years, and can be hidden for very long. Unfortunately, as I said, if this man and woman had an affair, they haven't been very clever or secretive, because everything has now come out. Shall we assume they are lying and spend the next ten years arguing and fighting and doubting everything your husband is saying. Can you live like this, can he, won't your marriage be over, and in reality you should get a divorce right now.
If your husband is having an affair, it will come out in the end. You know him, you know when he behaves strangely. How will he be able to manage to hide an affair. As I said, it seems to me this thing is over, and you would be best to try to rebuild your marriage and make it fun. I can see you gaining nothing with carrying on like this, if he has had an affair (which I doubt it very much) in the end it will all come out....
You have only one question to answer now, do you go on with your marriage, safe in the belief that everyone is telling the truth. Or do you follow your suspicions which have no evidence, assume everyone is lying and get a divorce. Your call babes, just stop making yourself crazy over this thing because you have children to look after, and this will play badly with your mental health.
Take some time out, calm your mind (maybe go to church or the park) listen to your heart and look deep within, there you will find out what is truth or not. Take care of you always, blessings.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (10 September 2008): LOL.. hey don't feel bad.. I told you what I would do, blame me, I put the idea in your head, I egged you on, so it's all my fault. I just couldn't stand you worrying yourself about this thing, and I didn't see how else it could be resolved except for bringing it to the attention of everyone involved...
You have acted brilliantly, everything you have done, is what I would have done too. I would have grabbed me a bottle (not wine) of whisky, I would have screamed, cried and shouted too. You noticed a change, your not stupid, you knew something was wrong. Your husband probably didn't see anything in his behaviour, but he was thinking something and probably making a fool of himself over this young woman. But by telling him, by making him see how important it is to you, he has had to evaluate how much his marriage means to him, and if he was thinking about doing anything, with anyone at all, you have now frightened him badly, and he will be watching his behaviour and how it looks to you from now on. Right first problem solved, stupid man husband now realises how important you and the family are and how much it hurts if he ever thinks to do something wrong... Time for a big pat on the back my dear. I think you acted brilliantly. Your not neurotic, your not crazy and mad, he had feelings, he changed his behaviour and you are telling him clearly that you notice everything he dose and you have a right to get worried and feel upset, because you know he has an attraction to someone...
Then we go on to action two, the thing I encouraged you to do. Rather than drive yourself insane, you contacted this woman and you told her what you were thinking. That's not stupid, that is having a suspicion and finding out the truth. Now she's told you what happened, NOTHING HAPPENED, she's got a boyfriend, she's not interested in your married man, and she's shocked that anything she has done would lead your husband to believe he had a chance with her. This is great, if she was interested, you've now told her to back off. If your husband has been acting strangely, you've warned her and she will change her behaviour. She will be very careful now, she will make sure their is nothing in her behaviour which will make you feel hurt. I doubt she will spend anytime at all with him, and she will avoid being alone with him, or calling him unless it's absolutely necessary. This is a great result. No fear that she wants to steal your man, and no more fears, that he might make a mistake and insult her.
Don't worry babes, it's best that this thing has all been brought out. She understands, she's a woman too. Next time you meet her, just give her a smile and a wink, and thank her for putting your mind at peace. Tell her your husband is a silly old man, and he had a small infatuation, that you had to put a stop too, before he embarrassed her, himself and you.
Take some time to relax, your marriage is safe, you know the truth. He is not thinking about cheating on you, she doesn't want him, and you've not been insanely jealous or suspicious. You noticed something, you followed your gut feelings, you brought it out in the open and stopped it straight away.
When you have time, read everything that you have written here, and our answers. You will see your feelings and your actions were perfectly right, but now it's over, and there is nothing more to worry about. You can then concentrate on your marriage, start a honeymoon, start dating him again, bring the romance alive, start looking after yourself, try to do fun things together. Marriages can slip into routine sometime, but your lucky that both of you have had a shock, and this will give you reasons to make your marriage stronger than ever... Take care of you, update and talk to us if you want, or throw away your post and get on with your life and your marriage, make it better than it was before.
Take care of you, good luck, and remember why you married him, help him to remember too. Regain the magic, all of this happened for a reason, and you tackled it in the best way you could... Blessings, as I said, I would have thought the same and done the same things as you... :^)
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A
female
reader, ready2bolt +, writes (10 September 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOkay - this is going to be my last post. I did it -- I made the phone call to HER this morning. I apologized for bothering her at work and asked her if she would have some time to talk to me. She said, is it serious, if so she would make time now. I said yeah - it's serious. So, she said she just needed to get to her desk where she could hear me better. I told her that I'd been talking to my husband and I was concerned that something might have happened between them and I just wondered if anything had. She sounded genuinely shocked. She said "no way!" She told me absolutely nothing happened, that my husband was very professional and that when she is at work it is all about business. She said they did work late together the one night and that it was not fun, they were there until about 2:30 in the morning but there were lots of projects to keep them busy. She said she is not that kind of a person and that she has a boyfriend and they are steady. She said my husband was married material and thus off limits and that all he did was talk about me and our kids. She said I had nothing to worry about, although she did ask what in the world would give me the idea something had happened between them. I just said I thought he was attracted to her and I wondered if she had been attracted to him. She said she was sorry if she had said anything to make me worry but that I could call her any time if I had questions. I told her again I was sorry about hitting her like that out of no where with a question like this, but I just had to know.
I can't believe I did this. I think I will feel better eventually, but for now I am just still shaking. I told my husband last night that-out of all our friends almost ALL of them have had unfaithful husbands and/or are currently in counseling. I just said why would we be any different? He said, out of every man in his family, his father and brothers and my father - none of them are liars and cheaters and all are dedicated to their wives and children. He said he was cut from the same cloth and proud of it.
I just want to thank all of you for taking the time to read all my lengthy, tortured posts. I think I still have some decisions to make -- like whether I at least need some counseling, or at least if the two of us should follow-through with that idea and do couples therapy. I still think we can benefit from some better communication and understanding about our relationship. I do want to be with this man until the end. It is great to be that in love, but also scary as hell when something like the spectre of infidelity shows up.
Thank you all and God Bless you guys!!! You have been such a help.
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A
female
reader, ready2bolt +, writes (10 September 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi again. Last night I had a bottle of wine with dinner (after we put the kids together) and I lost it - complete breakdown - in front of him. This is not the first time I have come to him crying my eyes out wanting to know the Truth - capital T, telling him this is making me sick and crazy. But this time, I was out of control. I wouldn't give up - couldn't. I asked him what was she like, who did he have dinner with the last night, where did they meet up, that I knew he wanted to be with her so how/when did it happen? He kept denying everything. Said I was making way more out of it than I should and that he never touched her, never had sex with her, and that nothing happened. I told him I would get out of the way if he needed space and time to figure out what he wanted - he said he wanted me that he knew she wasn't worth losing his family and job over. He stayed very firm with me the whole time - a pat "no" to every question - he got angry once and I thought he was going to walk out, but he stopped himself and came back, sat down next to me, and kept telling me nothing happened and he wished that I could believe that. A couple times he tried to hold me. I told him he had raised every red flag in the book and he said, "what - is there some kind of checklist?" and I said "pretty much, yea" and he said he must be the dumbest guy on earth b/c there was nothing for me to worry about. Then I said that I must be the biggest idiot b/c I want so much to believe him in my heart, but my head says that so much of this does not add up that I feel I would be a fool to believe.
I did say something like "even other people" could tell something was going on and he got pretty anxious -- asking me what other people. I was thinking the folks here and my closest friends who have been through this with their husbands, but he was like "who did you talk to? other people at the hub?" he asked if I had talked to the other male supervisor - I let him think I had for a few minutes just to see where our convo might go, but then gave in and said I had not talked to him. Obviously, I am scared to death to talk to them. If I am totally wrong it would be a terrible misstep and could undermine his position at work -- but I don't know who else to ask. I would pick up the phone and call her this instant, but my sense is she could care less about me and my feelings so she would have no reason to be honest with me. I really think I would get farther with the male supervisor - but maybe I'm wrong.
My best friend said last night that while counseling won't hurt, it won't get us anywhere if he cannot be honest. I know she's right. There is part of me that wants to sit him down and have him read this thread. Just something so he can see it from my perspective, if nothing else. I really don't think he is a cold-hearted liar, but like my friend says (and she has known us both since junior high) - he is passive aggressive and it is no surprise he is telling me I'm the crazy one here, not him. She also said if he is truly scared he will lose me he won't be honest no matter what. And that's the worst fear of all.
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reader, anonymous, writes (10 September 2008): Sorry babes, but none of this points to an affair to me. It dose suggest you husband is infatuated with this girl and may be thinking about planning something. However, we are looking at your husbands behaviour, she makes him want to get young get into shape, he's admitted he fancies her, OK we knew all that. But we are assuming that this woman fancies him, and wants to have an affair with him. You mentioned this other guy at work, maybe she's a flirt, someone who likes fun, but has no intention of having a fling with a married man from work.
I don't like secrets, I don't like confusion, and I don't like lies. Personally in your situation, and I can only say what I would do, I would go into my husbands work place and ask her directly if she's having an affair with my husband. I would tell her I know they spend time together and I know he and her have been to dinner, so what else is going on. I couldn't stand this type of insecurity, I couldn't have a relationship where the trust is in doubt. But that is me, that's what I would do. Again all you have is suspicions, coincidences and strange, changed behaviour, not anything that actually adds up 100% to an affair. But when your feeling like this something is going on, so I would tackle the woman and if I still wasn't satisfied I would demand that he find himself a new job. But remember this is what I would do in your situation, because I hate feeling insecure.
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reader, Ginalolabridga + ♥, writes (9 September 2008):
Hi,Your husband seems to be carried away with this girl the fact he mentioned he feels like a big brother to her tells me he knows already she is way too young for him and if he is kinda getting off at the attention then it may well be harmless.I know you won't see it like that as you seem to feel there is something untoward going on maybe the best thing to do is try and accidently bump into her and quiz her without mentioning names find out if she is seeing someone etc; it is tricky cause she works with your hubby and you throwing the spanner in the works so to speak may well rattle his cage a bit but it may well do more than that overall.I feel his casual manner is way out of line i would'nt stand for that tone especially when you said he said Fair Enough when you said to him if anything was going on you would leave with the kids?Sorry think he should have re-phrased that too"No you won't be going anywhere cause there is absolutely nothing going on and if you think for one minute i am going to jepordise you and kids for a fling your sadly mistaken"Would that not have re-assured you a bit more?I am thinking maybe it is all tit for tat he likes the attention she is flirting with him the danger here is if he takes this seriously men love attention and if a Madam is going to offer it on a plate who is to say he will refuse??I think only you know your hubby better than anyone ask him and even her if you have the nerve just what the hell is going on??I certainly would'nt wait for it to come chapping at my door then ask questions!He has to realise all this is making you ill with worry and if he has nothing to hide then what's the problem with him?Talk to him again explain how uncomfortable all this is making you feel he needs to know there is two people in this marriage and he can't be going sniffing round young girls whilst married to you sorry i don't care whether it is harmless fun to him it clearly is not acceptable behaviour.I know only too well what it is like to live with someone who lies repeatedly you see we lie to hide things only reason!!Talk this over again with him and i truly hope everything is ok for you both.Ginalolabridga
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reader, ready2bolt +, writes (9 September 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionOh - and here's another comment. I told him for what we spent on the eliptical, we could've had several sessions of marriage counseling. He kind of snorted and said the only counseling we need is a weekend away. I just don't think that a weekend of passion is going to fix what is going on underneath the surface. Am I wrong?
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reader, ready2bolt +, writes (9 September 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHi - just wanted to do an update. Husband is finally home after his last week of travel. The odds are good that he will not have to go back there again. So - here's the new scoop. I figured that once the pressure was off that he would not see her again, he might be a little more forthcoming with me. So - he finally told me the other night, after I had pressed, that he DID find her attractive, said her body was "cute" and that he liked her because she was "different." Great - how the hell do I compete with "different?" He also dreamt about her, fantasized about her, and was worried that his feelings toward her would make her uncomfortable so he said he felt like he went the "other way" to try to prove he was not interested.
Now - I'm not sure how he went out of his way to show her he wasn't interested. He continued to buy meals for her and I noticed in a work-related email he complimented her work (which was just her completing a standard HR form) that she had done a GREAT JOB with exclamation points. I know this seems ridiculous, but he is not an exclamation point type of guy and doing a great job just for completing a form? Puhlease. He also then later tried to tell me that he just felt like a big brother to her. Well, that's just gross! I think he is so confused he can't keep his story straight.
He continues to say "nothing happened" but he did mention in passing that one of the co-workers had asked him what he did at night when he left the office. I think my husband just took it as casual conversation - I took it that the co-worker was just wondering (as I have) what was going on after hours. This co-worker was also another male that, when I was there and watched his interaction with the female co-worker in question, the two of them seemed kind of chummy too. I mentioned this to my husband and he said he had observed that too - that he had watched how they were together in an effort to discern if she was "this way" with other men. On one level I am thinking my husband and this other guy are both attracted to her and were just trying to figure out how connected she is to either of them. Ugh. Two dumb moose fighting over the hot bitch in heat.
I am fighting the urge to call her and ask if anything happened between her and my husband. I know this is NOT a constructive thing to do, but I am sick of having to work so hard to get answers. My dumb ass husband should've come clean with me from the beginning if there had truly been nothing to hide. But instead, he is doling out details only when I push harder and confront him with the little evidence I've been able to piece together. I just want an answer so we can move on.
Maybe I should call the male co-worker. If he had suspicions and was envious or jealous, maybe he would be more inclined to dish?
For what it is worth he is super attentive to me now. Is that guilt guys? It's nice, except when I realize WHY he is trying so hard to treat me well. I also worry that he will tire of working so hard too. Also - he is eager to get his body back in shape - just bought an eliptical machine this weekend. The thought being that we would both work out together at night. But I can't help but wonder what his motivation really is. I am so messed up over this.
Oh - and I found another restaurant receipt for a party of two. This one is really puzzling me though - it was for an airport restaurant, a location past the security point so the only way anyone can eat there is if they have a plane ticket. I am trying to get through to the restaurant folks to ask some questions, but am having a hell of a time. Does anyone go through the Detroit Metro Airport?
Last, but not least, does anyone know how to tell on a blackberry if something has been deleted? I am keeping up the surveillance. It is the only thing that has gotten me this far. To think - if I had just ignored my intuition before I would have known NOTHING. Then again, all I know is that my husband fantasized about another woman... is that really enough to go this nuts over? I guess, at the end of the day, I still feel like I don't know the whole story and that I do KNOW my husband is not eager to tell any part of this story -- that bugs me more than anything. LIke, he is still hiding something.
I have a friend who's husband drug out his confession over 2 years. She said it was hell the whole time. He did sleep with the co-worker, but denied it for two years until it finally ate him up in guilt. I really don't want to wait two years.
Last, but not least, I told my husband that if I found out he had lied to me there would be no second chances and I and the kids would be out the door in a flash. His reply? "Fair enough."
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reader, anonymous, writes (31 August 2008): Marriage counselling is ideal. No matter what it can only bring out some real truths and make you and your husband communicate with each other better. Great idea, this will definately put your mind at rest....
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reader, ChiRaven +, writes (30 August 2008):
By all means go ahead with the counseling. It's a great way for the two of you to learn new ways of open communications and learn to deal with these sorts of problems before they build up into serious troubles for your marriage. Communication is always the key. It has to be honest and you both have to work at it. If you can do that, you'll be just fine.
Get the services of a professional. Get the strong skills that you need. You'll be glad you did.
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reader, Ginalolabridga + ♥, writes (30 August 2008):
Hi,
Yes i have been to Marriage Counselling go i urge you both to do this you both will get to air how you feel and the counsellor takes no sides she will however take on board what both of you are saying/worried about and this is a time for hubby to be honest with you too it is amazing how they open up infront of a complete stranger i think you both would benefit from this.
He seems to want to make this marriage work if there was anything untoward happening/going to happen! it may well be over now he sees your insecurities and i think when he realises he could lose everything he has he will decide it just ain't worth it.
Go to Counselling you both will benefit from it but be honest there is no point to this unless all the cards are laid on the table i wish you both well.
Good Luck.
Ginalolabridga
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reader, ready2bolt +, writes (30 August 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionHey - just an update. We are back from our trip. I got to meet her and honestly couldn't tell anything definitive. DH did not introduce me to her right away, so I introduced myself. The first time I shook hands with her I thought she looked scared and she could barely speak up when she said "hi". She did say she had "heard a lot about me". The second time, when DH finally introduced us, I thought he was pale as a ghost and looked scared - but she was practically glowing. That same day though I caught her looking at me a couple times and not in a friendly way (I made sure to wear my complete wedding set - a nice little rock) and I got to play hostess for a casual dinner for the work crew so I was there with our kids, DH was running the grill, and she was there. No opportunity to visit with her really, but I didn't come away convinced that my suspicions were ridiculous - but I didn't come away confident either. During the trip we were extra affectionate with each other and we talked several times about my suspicions. He did not get defensive with me when I kept asking him questions. After I actually lost sleep two nights from worry and was practically sick at my stomach and crying I told him that regardless of what had happened, I was insecure enough that I thought perhaps we needed marriage counseling. He teared up but said he would do anything. I told him I don't want my insecurities to ruin our marriage, but I can't live with these awful feelings either. He said he would do whatever it took and that he had nothing to hide so I could ask any question, see his phone, etc. Either he is a first class, devious, evil person or this really was relatively innocent and nothing happened. Has anyone here ever been to marriage counseling? Do you think it is worth taking the time to do this? Thanks for all your help!!
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reader, anonymous, writes (21 August 2008): Damn.. You got one bloody stupid husband. I was ready to defend him, but even I'm at a loss. Secret phone calls and hiding the phone. As I've said, I speak to guys all the time, and nothing is hidden, I want their partners to know I'm just a friend. Not good, not good at all. I was wrong, thanks for the update, and I apologise madam, because as you say, you know your husband and he's behaviour is definately pointing to all the wrong things. My ex knew I had met somebody else, I didn't do anything except keep my phone with me, nothing else was needed, he understood.... The phone thing has gotten me mad. Follow the advice from the other aunts and uncles, because I'm not sure how to find trap a "cheating/badly behaved/screwed up" man....
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reader, anonymous, writes (21 August 2008): I think they are flags, but not proof.
My advice is not to become the miserable wife that drives a person to leave no matter what the situation. Monitor him covertly. Dont let his flags of being watched go up.
Be the sweetest, most fun-loving and gracious (especially to her) wife that you can be.
Find out the facts. Honor yourself with whatever you find.
Good Luck
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reader, ready2bolt +, writes (21 August 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI don't know if I made this clear before, but I knew he bought her meals for her during his first trip out, but when I gave him opportunities to mention it to me he NEVER said anything. For example, with the dinner thing he told me he had gone to a restaurant to get nachos (based on her recommendation) and that was all he had eaten that night for supper, in fact that he was not able to finish the nachos and he had given the rest to her. When I decided to check out his story for myself, the restaurant receipt showed two drinks, two entrees, and the infamous nachos. They were working together late that night and it would have been nothing out of the ordinary for him to have purchased her supper - so why did he go out of his way to NOT tell me? When I finally told him I had seen the receipt and knew what he'd bought he said he hadn't told me b/c he knew I'd twist his story. As far as I'm concerned, there was nothing to twist until he started LYING. The other part to this is that the whole reason they were working late together was that his boss had originally asked her to keep the facility open late that night so an electrical crew could come in and do some work. When my husband showed up, apparently she told him that she was not comfortable being there by herself as a woman alone with all those strange men. So, my husband offered to stay there WITH her. Not send her home so he could stay by himself, but STAY THERE WITH HER. Now, she had not met my husband before this - so I'm thinking he was just one more "strange" man to her - but suddenly she is willing to still be teh only woman alone with all those men as long as MY HUSBAND is there to what - protect her or something?! The two of them were at the facility until almost 2AM. Originally he told me she would just be there long enough for him to run out and get supper then he would send her home. Sadly, that is NOT what happened. Am I nuts that his story makes my stomach turn?
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reader, ready2bolt +, writes (21 August 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI do think this affair -- if it is that -- was certainly not something he had planned. It is out of character for him and I think he has been flying by the seat of his pants - so to speak. Therefore, I'm not surprised he didn't think twice about the whole shaving bit. Plus, he was just sloppy and left traces of hair where I think he never thought I'd see it. When I initially called him on it, it was over the phone and I tried to say in a joking manner who was he "fixing" himself up for? Believe me there was some stunned silence on the other end of the line for a bit. He told me this week, once he was home and I was pushing harder to know what was going on, that he also trimmed up his pits and chest hair! Good gravy! He also doesn't know that I am getting copies of his personal email sent to my account and the last two days he has been changing passwords on his credit card account and also on his work benefits account. That is strange timing, don't you think? He knows, although not in great detail, that I was tracking his spending while he was gone. I wonder if he is tidying things up so the next time he goes I won't be able to find out what he's doing. He has also been practically inseparable from his phone - took it in the bathroom with him the other morning, but I could hear everything so it wasn't like he was making phone calls. But text messages maybe? All I can hear is him clicking buttons like crazy. I don't have a blackberry like he does so I don't know if he could be texting her and then deleting the notes? He has also been staying late at work this week - I have wondered if he's been chatting with her on the work computer or work phone so there is no trace for me to see when he gets home. As for our heavy duty sex, it was a normal frequency before he left, but I have been on him like mad since he got home. I'm hoping that, if he wants a bad girl, then I have to be that for him - give him more than he can stand. Am I nuts? Plus, there are certain things a wife knows about DH in bed and I am checking for those subtle changes, some I've noticed but won't go into detail here. I've disclosed enough already! I don't want to be an insecure nut, but damn if there aren't some textbook signs - and they are all coming together at once. I've either made him feel so nervous and guilty that every thing he does looks like a coverup OR he really has a reason to feel nervous and guilty. Like I said, I could deal with him being attracted to her and even fantasizing about it IF he would admit to it -- but he doesn't. So then, why the lies about buying her meals while he was out there? He bought her dinner and, as far as I can tell, at least a couple breakfasts.
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reader, anonymous, writes (21 August 2008): Sigh.. your probably right Q... but dosen't shaved privates mean he is itchy, why dose it mean he wants sex, and even if it dose, who says he's gonna get it...He's been having tons of sex with the wife, maybe she made him sore. Maybe he wanted her jealous so he could get tons of sex and BJ's, maybe he's doing it for the wife?Probably I'm the foolish one, tons of ways for men to hide things, if he was gonna do anything, why didn't he wait untill he went away before he shaved his pubes. Men can't be so stupid to leave such big evidence that they are thinking of having an affair..... Come on... "Hey, shave me pubes, the wife will never suspect that I'm gonna have sex with somebody else".... Are guys really this stupid Q...
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reader, q1605 +, writes (21 August 2008):
 Diovanlestat. I know what you mean. but what if you were about to embark on the Diovanlestat world tour to go and see every one and all the miles and mountains and oceans that lie between were now gone. And you went to his town for a week and he took it apon himself to personally be your guide to the city. And you left town but were coming back and he was in the loo shaving his privates in anticipation. Some of us need to see it in the flesh. Some of us can extrapolate.
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reader, anonymous, writes (21 August 2008): I'm sorry babes, I don't know what to say, but I don't see any evidence that your husband is cheating. Since I've been on DC, I've sent plenty of mail to both Uncles and Aunts, and sometimes they are flirty and talk about sexual things. This is because the advice we give out is concerned with relationships and sexual matters. It's harmless fun, nothing is going on, we just joke about. One day I sent an Uncle a flirty text telling how much I wanted to run away and marry him. You can just imagine my surprise when I got a response from his wife. She said that she wanted to talk to me, because sometimes she finds him laughing over something I said. I forgot that some women might find offensive especially if I as they don't know me and realise that this is the way I am in real life. This uncle has a very lovely wife, I always make sure I pass on my regards, it has never crossed my mind that some women get jealous. I expect that people are open with their partners about talking to women friends. I think your insecurities are ruining your marriage, you are counting up 2+2 = 5. He has reassured you he loves you, but what else can he do. Nothing we can do will help you. You believe he's cheating, and you will always believe that no matter what anyone has to say.... Sorry there is nothing I can do to help... I'm sorry for your husband to because it sounds like he loves you very much and thinks the world of you. Your jealousy is gonna ruin your life. People flirt, it gives him a boost, instead of checking up on him and assuming the worst, why don't you be pleased his found his youth, and continue making passionate love to him. Flirtations make people feel wanted, be happy he has a good friend, but realise that's all it is. When you meet her, you will like her and realise she is no threat. She likes your husband but dosen't want anything else except friendship.
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reader, Ginalolabridga + ♥, writes (21 August 2008):
Hi,
You know you seem to have a gut feeling there is something not right here and i would go with the gut feeling do whatever you think may be necessary to get him to open up a bit more i think there maybe something going on here now that's not to say it is anything untoward but you already feel it is i think!!!
Go with your gut instinct they are usually right do all the things you said you would if he is up to anything you will catch him and i think when you meet her you will know i was in a similar situation with my hubby many years ago and to this day he denies anything was going on with this particular woman but my gut told me otherwise!
Unfortunately if he is cheating he will lie and then some so it is up to you to do your homework here and i hope you get to the bottom of it whatever it is stay strong.
I think taking the kids is a good idea too let her see you are a family unit and if she has any conscience and is thinking of doing anything with your man maybe seeing you all as a family might just squash that!!
Ginalolabridga
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reader, ready2bolt +, writes (21 August 2008):
ready2bolt is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI am so grateful for all these responses - each one of you has a perspective that I just cannot get by myself - too close to this situation to breathe sometimes! I do feel like we are still very much in love and I would not fault him at all for fantasies - I think that is normal. But he denies even that -- which then makes me worry all the more. I know he has had contact with her via phone and email since he was there -- he just talked to her yesterday in fact -- I was able to get that much from his cell phone (I have learned how to locate a more complete call log even though all the records go to his work where I can't see them). He found out yesterday that his boss was sending him back there in September. I am assuming once he learned his boss was going to send him back there he called her to "casually" make sure she knew and see where the conversation went from there - that is my imagination. The reality I dealt with in the aftermath yesterday is discovering that he wants to fly out on Labor Day to get there (when there is no work to be done b/c the facility will be closed for the holiday) and I am asking him to take the redeye the next morning. My request clearly irritated him as he kept saying it would be cheaper to go the day before (it is on the company dime and we are only talking a couple hundred bucks so the whole "cheaper" argument doesn't wash with me). From what I can tell, there were legitimate work issues to talk about with the management team at that facility yesterday, but why he was talking to her and not the lead supervisor or the manager about those issues is strange. I am going to have to pull myself together for next week when I meet her face to face. I will have to also do some "work" to make sure I get to meet her. We will have one rental car between us and it will take some doing for me to get the car so I can drop by his work. I'll have to drag the kids along too. Ugh!! I've toyed with the idea of inviting the management team out to dinner with us while we are there. I feel like I need to see them in a social setting -- but I'm not sure I can pull it off. Any suggestions?
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reader, Ginalolabridga + ♥, writes (21 August 2008):
Hi,I think being married 21 yrs you would think you knew him pretty well would'nt you?I learned a long time ago that we still learn after all that time sometimes things in relationships change men in particular get bored easily maybe this woman is boosting his ego and he has'nt done anything except get all gooey-eyed over his attraction to someone he thinks may well feel the same as him!Maybe it is'nt like that i think it is hard to tell here he is denying any knowledge of the things you ask but then guilt makes you lie does'nt it? That's if he is!What if he is'nt and is just flattered he can still attract the opposite sex.I am guessing you are both very much still in love but like all long term marriages it can become a bit stagnant!You are doing all the right things checking his cell phone, e-mail etc; all the things i would do too and the fact you have made him aware you feel something is not quite right maybe just the thing he needs to stop him in his tracks if he thinks he was going to do something he may well later regret!Tell him your begining to feel you can't trust him as you feel all these things are going on in your head!I would say keep your eye on him and his tools i.e phone etc; and keep quizzing him if you feel the need the best way to uncover any kind of problem is Talking!!I wish you both well.Ginalolabridga
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reader, q1605 +, writes (21 August 2008):
For me there are two levels that I function at on any given day. The reality of the world that lets me get through and gets me by with out looking like a complete dipshit level. Like recognizing that if a waitress IS really smiling at a disproportionate level its only to get a bigger tip. The 20 year old that smiled at me, smiles at every one and is just a nice friendly person. But there is an under current of hope with a dash of fantasy swirling around in there. I know that somewhere at any given time, someone, somewhere, is getting laid by someone, or in circumstances, they would not have thought possible. So sometimes I will do things with less caution than normal. Say if the smiling girl was hitch hiking and I picked her up. This is where fantasy starts overtaking reality and I really have to be vigilant. Because she is just fighting with her boyfriend, and thats about all there is to that. But the proximity gives you a whole new level of exposure. You and her are speaking. She now knows you are not a complete idiot. She laughs at your jokes and you find she smells good and even has a brain. This is still a guy enjoying the company of a young girl in a very acceptable way. But if I went home and shaved my dick That to me would be an indicator of fantasy pulling ahead of reality and leaving it in the dust. Or that reality is that he is nailing her or working up to it. But your reality doesn't look that good to me. Because even if he has gone off to some alternate reality, and this woman is not egging him on, he has abdicated his responsibility to check himself. If he gets to a place like this and the woman won't. Which tells you that the only correcting mechanism in place is whatever lays in wait for him in the moral compass of who he encounters. For me thats about as unacceptable as the other.
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reader, ChiRaven +, writes (20 August 2008):
First big question: other than feel really terrible, what are you going to do differently if you find out that he IS involved with this woman than you're doing now? Would you consider leaving him? Confront him with ultimatums? Throw a fit? What?
From the tone of your letter, my guess is pretty much, none of the above. I think that you really want to accept the idea that your husband is really just involved with this woman as a colleague, if that is possible.
Your meeting with her is your chance to test this theory. I would find it difficult to believe unless the two of them are academy award level thespians that they can pull off a totally convincing innocent act for any period of time while the three of you are together. Once you meet her, I think you'll have a pretty clear picture of what's going on.
If it really is as innocent as your husband maintains, it should show in the way he relates to her (and she to him) while you're there. If they are quite defensive, on the other hand, it's probably a pretty good sign that something really is up.
If so, you probably need to discuss this with your husband again. He should be aware by then that you know, and hopefully he'll be more willing to face his situation honestly. If your marriage is important to him (and my guess is that it is), I suspect the two of you can find an acceptable way to salvage it in spite of this affair. It all depends on his willingness to be honest and stand up to his responsibilities, and your willingness to be understanding.
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reader, anonymous, writes (20 August 2008): When you go with him, make sure EVERYONE meets you and that you smile lots, be charming and make sure everyone knows you are his lovely WIFE. Man, I'd be insane with worry too.
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