New here? Register in under one minute Already a member? Login

67680 questions, 298164 answers

Dear Cupid > Forums > Cupid's Lounge > In Response to Anja - 'God'

In Response to Anja - 'God'

martini, posted over a year ago

People who aren't fundamental in their religion or people who don't follow some sort of religion, generally get riled up from those who point out that "God loves all of us", "God wouldn't do this to people" or "God isn't stupid, he is very wise", etc. Then followed by comments like "Everyone else don't know any better", or "If you don't put your faith into God, then you will never understand", etc.

For me, I've had my massive share of religious people coming to me, condemning me and annoying the crap out of me, even throwing a major fit and telling his entire family, including me and my family and friends that we will all go to lala hell and boil for all of eternity. I mean, that guy and those people really need to chill out. Go have a dip in the pool or eat a buck of ice cream!

What really gets me are those who arrive at my door - EVEN when I explicitly tell them no soliciting, telling me that we should go give their church a try. When that doesn't work, they bring some hot asian girl with the pastor and try to lure me in. Last time that happened, I couldn't stop laughing. The pastor was irritated and asked me what was so funny and responded something like, "You couldn't get me in last time, so you brought bait eh?"

Anyway, Anja's last comment on that girl's post "If there is no God why do all of you care to make a comment for/against Him, good or bad?" - it IS about ignorance. You automatically think that if we talk about God, then there is a god, or at least in your POV, a Christian God.

Now I'm an agnostic and I hate calling myself that. Whatever is out there is out there, whether I believe in it or not. To me, it doesn't matter. If it's all in our head for the last 4000 years, then whatever, who the fuck cares? Seems like the people of Islam, Christ, and Judaism really care about this. Here's taken from my blog - just some humorous FYI:

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Anyway, it just irritates me when the mention of God and stuff get into the personal lives of the many. Faith? Yeah how contradictory. If you have faith in Christ, why are you in mathematics, as a scientist, as a medic, as a person in business? Would you not leave everything to Christ and God and trust that they will provide everything for you? Would you not leave the will of change up to them?

Why learn about the human body, when it is supposedly the will of God that diseases, illness, and similar things happen to people? The tsunami that killed millions, devastated the lands, the hurricane that destroyed New Orleans, the constant tornadoes that tear through the states, the massive floods that kills thousands in China - why become a medic/doctor/nurse, when it is supposedly the will of God? Doesn't God have a purpose for all these things?

You say God helps people, that it is wise, and is not stupid and loves everyone - how the fuck do you know that? Because a book says that? How is God wise when it can't even 'write' a book in different languages in the first place, and how could he be wise if the Bible did not and cannot state the exact laws of living? Through the centuries, wars have ensued from the different interpretations of the bible. Many denominations have risen throughout the millenia - Jehovah's, Mormons, Evangelists, etc.

Anyway, I can go on, but my wrists hurt and I'm at work. I don't expect anyone to add to this, BUT, these are some of my thoughts.

Summary: I am Canadian, and I love Kokanee. [wink]

Posted on 20 June 2006 @ 20:59 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

, posted over a year ago

What do you think of Stephen Hawking?

In that the universe is infinite and even the atom, electron = and Stephen theory that there is indeed something smaller than an electron-to the fact that it is believed that electrons and neutrons lose or gain energy and bounce back and forth between levels of energy denote this idea of the universe being infinite.

Also take the "energy never dies; it transforms" as science's way of denoting there is a higher power.

We are part of this higher power and parts of us will never die.

I say that there are many Gods but we, the people of this Earth were created by one supreme power.

I believe this one supreme power wants for us to be happy; to learn and grow in wisdom. This Earth is a place where we can grow and be happy.

This power loves all and set the world in motion with man to rule over in "righteous dominion".

We are to discern between good and bad. We have the gift of free agency. We have the capacity to do all things in greatness. We are beautiful and amazing.

Each person has within them the power to do great good or great harm.

In the end the message is to do good and do no harm.

Simplify things and we are all united; we all belong, we all are one.

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 17:17 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted over a year ago

I rather we unite as one than to have people believe in many. My motto since I was a teen was/is: "Unity equals progression."

For example, two weeks ago, I had an argument with another senior designer at our firm. However, I stopped and looked at it as a whole and instead of debating over and over again, I said to myself, "There is little progression if we continue this. The good of this project is for the company. We must unite our minds, so the project can progress."

This ideal works for everything. 8]

I was watching a thingy on string theory - things that make up the basics of everything, smaller than atoms and they supposedly vibrate too! 8]

I lost my train of thought. Went downstairs to get chicken. Mmm... Chicken... Yum!

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 21:13 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted over a year ago

Basics of String Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

I'll have more thoughts on Stephen Hawking when I'm not so hung over. Domo arigato [bows].

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 21:15 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

Where did all this come from Martini, whats with insulting Christianity all about. You may be agnostic thats great, but why the long rant about Christianity? Me for example, I strongly go against the TRINITY, not all Christians believe in the Triune God, and I am one who believes in the oneness of God, I dont think its fair that you rant on like this, we all have different opinions, and thats fine. You believe what you believe and me and Anja believe what we believe. Thank you

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 21:55 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Serene Katy, posted over a year ago

Amen

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 22:7 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

Dear Martini, As I feel so strongly on this I will add my 10 excerpts, the opposite of what you have written:

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

WHO SAID I WE DENY THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER GODS? THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT GODS ACCORDING TO PEOPLE, BUT IN MY REALITY THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, I DONT CARE ABOUT WHOM ANYONE ELSE BELIEVES IN, TO ME ONLY JESUS IS GOD

9 - You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

WHO SAID WE FEEL DEHUMANISED? I JUST THINK ITS PIFFLE THAT WE EVOLVED FROM APES, BUT IF THE BIBLE SAYS MAN WAS CREATED FROM DIRT, THEN GOD BEING GOD CAN DO ANYTHING. GET OVER IT.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

I DO NOT BELIVE IN THE TRINITY, THE BIBLE SAYS I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE, AND THAT WAS JESUS TALKING. JESUS IS THE IMAGE OF GOD, THERE ARE NO THREE SEPARATE BEINGS, ONLY ONE GOD, JESUS CHRIST

ERRM WHAT THE HELL? I DONT TURN UP MY FACE AGAINST ALLAH AT ALL, WHERE DID THAT COME FROM?

WHO SAID I LAUGH AT HINDUS? YOU MIGHT BUT I DONT

YAWN

HELL WASNT MADE FOR MAN BUT FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS DEMONS, MAN DECIDES HE WANTS TO GO TO HELL, NOT GOD

HOW DARE YOU CALL SOMEONE AN IDIOT, WHO SAYS HE IS AN IDIOT, YOU SHOULD NEVER BLASPHEME THE HOLY GHOST

WHAT THE HELL?

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

THATS RIDICULOUS, JUST COS YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT SOMETHING DOESNT QUALIFY YOU TO BE THAT PERSON, A CHRISTIAN IS A FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, I DONT GIVE A FLYING F*** IF YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT THE BIBLE THAN ME, I KNOW A LOT ABOUT DRUGS BUT YET I DONT TAKE THEM NOR HAVE I EVER TAKEN THEM SO THATS AN INVALID COMMENT

It amazes me how people are so quick to insult another persons faith and make assuptions like you have done which are not true of a lot of Christians and of me in particular, As a Christian I have never once cast judgement on anyone and I dont bash people with my faith yet you have the audacity to come out with all that ranting and insults. Its not fair.

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 22:50 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

DearCupid, posted over a year ago

FWIW I strongly suspect that Anja was a "troll", when I was nuking someone else's accounts who was posting garbage, the Anja one was from the same IP. Not 100% certain but fairly sure.

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 23:1 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

Oh I see, well thanks for that info! I have noticed that she has not been on the scene for ages!!!!

Thank you

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 23:5 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

Martini, please dont think that I want to turn this into some argument, I dont, but I get very hurt when you make assumptions. I have no problem with you or your beliefs, but please dont be so insulting next time. Thank you.

Posted on 27 August 2006 @ 23:25 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted over a year ago

First of all, those 10 points were not mine. I took them from another post from Craigslist. The link is here: http://vancouver.craigslist.org/about/best/phx/167335230.html - as you can see, it was posted on June 2nd, 2006, where as mine was June 13th on my blog page.

If you want to go rant your ass off, you can do there instead.

As for why I am against Christianity - I am not. I am against religion as a whole. However, Christianity has ALWAYS been the one to come up in almost everything I associate myself with before I learned to NOT associate myself with it in the first place.

I may have an unreasonable amount of patience for many things, but I have a very low tolerance for people who exert religion on others - who talk about religion as they say that they do not judge others, yet they have the tenacity to say they themselves know the truth. THAT IN ITSELF IS A JUDGEMENT.

You say you don't judge others. Just because your thoughts are unspoken, does not mean you do not judge others. You proclaim that you know the truth. That means that everyone else is following the wrong thing. You say you have no problem for others believing in whatever they believe in as long as you believe in what you believe in.

In Christianity (as with many other single-god religions), the religion is absolute. There is NO SUCH THING AS MULTI-VARIOUS interpretations. THE REASON WHY SO MANY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE HAVE A MULTITUDE OF interpretations is the absolute fact that religion itself is NOT DEFINED. YET YOU HAVE THE TENACITY TO SAY IT IS THE TRUTH.

BY WHAT MATTER, SUBJECT, AND HISTORICAL EVENT THAT YOU YOURSELF AS AN INDIVIDUAL HAS HAD THE opportunity to witness and experience to say that YOUR RELIGION IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH?

I once had the opportunity to argue the case of religion with someone who was a lot more in-tuned with his religion than most that I have had the chance to meet and/or talk with. His usual argument with me was to ask, "Why not?"

I told him that I understand why religion must exist on this planet. Without it, many people will not have a focus in their lives. Many people need religion as a form of self-realization that do in fact exist for a purpose higher than themselves alone.

He asked me if someone had attacked my beliefs, shouldn't I be hurt. I grinned and answered that I would not. If I was a person who only focusses myself on a religion, and use that to live through life in this world, than sure, I may cry and become overly defensive. However, I do not need religion to tell me who I am and what my purpose is in this world, in this life. Thus, your rants, as well as Anja's sparked a sensitive cord in my moral code.

It is the usual 'tactic' that I have experienced throughout my entire 22 years since I've gained self-awareness, that 90% of the Christians I have met or talk with would counter attack, or declare a defensive position for the supposed peace they have achieved through their own religion, then when they have made their voices heard, they would quickly shut down the argument and say, "I don't want to talk about this anymore. I don't want to hear what you have to say because what you have to say does not involve me."

The just of it. Of course, there are many other verbal forms - some more polite, others more blunt.

I am very intolerant of Christians. Alas, I have three Christian friends - very close ones. One of them I have known for 20 years this month. Never once in my entire life that we've been friends, has he every preached his beliefs to me. The only time I ever hear ANYTHING to do with Christianity from him is when he invites me to his religious events. The other friend who is Christian is not so tactful, but that's a story I will not get into. Then the last friend who is Christian whom her boyfriend, which is my brother who is more Buddhist gave a lot, sacrificed a lot for her. I questioned my brother and said, "You would accept a church wedding for her, yet she absolutely declines to step foot in a temple for Guan Yin because she feels it is against her beliefs. I feel very insulted. If she wasn't your wife-to-be, she would not be my friend and future sister."

I wish, with all of my heart, that religion be abolished and that people start learning about themselves, their families, their duties and obligations to the state. Following religion is fine IF it was unified. Alas, if Christianity was absolute, or if Islam is absolute, etc, then wouldn't the people of the world be unified then?

Then would there be no denominations or factions of a belief? Then would there be no versions and 'necessary' translations for the Bible or the Koran?

If a religion is absolute, then the point of having a separated people, having separated ideals, having the emotions of lust and torment - would they all not contradict the whole idea of a religion being absolute? Rather than it starting in one place of the world at a time when the world was torn asunder by the egos of an emperor?

Of course not. It doesn't work that way. If today someone who resembles a son of god were to come out, the world's population would ridicule that person because of learned wit and intelligence. Of course, 2000 years ago, people burned women at a stake, just because she can practice medicine, heal people using alternative means, or believe in another invisible man. 2000 years later, if we were to hang a woman or burn her at a stake for practicing Buddhism or using Chih-Gong or Pagan worshipping or anything like that, those same people would go to jail.

Assumptions you say? I never say all. I always say relativity. For my last example, I have a cousin who I had the opportunity to become friends with a long time ago. Back then, he was a very good person, laid back enough, and loved to play and joke. Years later, after he joined a church in the UK, he came back to Hong Kong, and every day, he would denounce my aunt and uncle and his sister for not becoming Christians. He continued to pester them saying that they will not be saved, will go to hell and burn forever. He would then cry and burst out of the house, slamming the doors, and going to his church where the pastor would calm him and say pretty much what you have said.

Anyway, bottom line is that, my only problem with religion of today is that people exert their will even when they don't verbally say it. As with Malyce Synn, I believe in oneness - unity, togetherness. I love that idea. I wish that the people of this world can do it, but it can't and it will never happen. Lest it turns out like the world in Equilibrium.

IF YOU TRULY believe in your own beliefs, then NOTHING I say can make you cry or make you sad, or at the very least, make u upset. Like a tree, it serves its purpose to create air, to create seeds, to create flowers. If you attack it with your sword, it may bleed sap, but it will continue to grow and serve its purpose. Unless of course, you strike it down and make it into firewood.

As with I, the only thing I 'need' to do to stand up for my beliefs, is to be myself. When people of religion cause strife, to attach my beliefs, I laugh whole-heartedly and say this, "And exactly what are you attacking? My beliefs are infallible, because it exists only in here [points to my heart] and no where else. It needs not to be written. It needs not have churches nor temples be built for it. It needs not pastors, priests, nuns, or monks to preach it. And finally, it need not congretations of men and women, boys and girls to follow it."

[bows]

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 1:15 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

, posted over a year ago

Wait.

Jesus was one in purpose with his father; God.

Jesus time and again said no glory unto me but to my Father who resides in heaven; the one true God...worship him.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 1:18 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

, posted over a year ago

And to clarify...it was Pharoh that ordered the slaughter of those many Jewish children as he thought MOSES was JESUS and therefore felt his kingdom was threatened let alone his authority over the slaves.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 1:20 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

, posted over a year ago

I highly enjoyed EQUILIBRIUM.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 1:34 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

, posted over a year ago

Most of the problems of today are when people betray their own beliefs. When they become a hypocrite...they point the finger at others and fail to point it at themselves and say...hey, I'm being the idiot here...I'm being unkind, I am being selfish, I am not listening, I am hating...

It's the hypocrites that make this life unbearable. As well as the naricisstic and sociopaths.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 1:45 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted over a year ago

Haha, and so did I. I think Christian Bale is a great actor. I also really liked American Psycho.

I am sure, many prophets of a religion would speak of unity and oneness. To humble yourself for an invisible man is great. It shows to others that you have some form of modesty. Conceitedness aside, the only god I recognize is myself. Even then, whatever a god may be in story books and fairy tales, I do not believe in the infinite immortality of oneself or others. Things can only really last and exist as long as people are here to see, read, and hear about them.

Religious deities only exist because humans exist. Humans want an organized whole, thus religion is created to incorporate the needs of the whole. The world is segregated with different beliefs, because each person have their own mind, thoughts, and wills.

[chuckles] As with a recent conversation with an old friend over tea and noodles, I blurted, "Wouldn't it be nice to follow in the footsteps of our ancestors and serve an emperor and the state?" Even then, the emperor must be a good person, a good mentor, and one not afraid to make mistakes and try to listen for correction. [wink]

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 1:49 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

As always Martini, I dont believe in starting arguments, and whenever you do respond you always write something intelligent to make one think so thats fine with me, but you did say something about judging others, i.e. because my views are not heard, well arent we all like that, do you think that everythingin the world is ok? Of course not, yet I am sure that you dont vocalise your views on everything do you. So no I dont judge people, I dont tell people they are going to Hell, I dont respond to peoples problems with something like you are a sinner and sort your life out, I answer most questions, justly and fairly regardless of what I may think on the subject. I am aware that thousands if not millions of Christians or people all over the world calling themselves Christians are hypocrites, I believe that, I also believe there are a lot of false "Christians" out there, of course, but I do not believe that I am one of them. Thank you

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 10:3 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Yos, posted over a year ago

I am sceptical of anyone who is sure of anything.

If you are 100% sure there is a God then I have to wonder how well you really know yourself. Are we all not fallible? Could you wrong? Of course you could. We all can.

But I feel the same way about the athiests and agnostics. To criticize religeon from the safe seats of rationality and science is to stand on one pile of assumptions whilst claiming that you shouldn't be making assumptions. Just as someone who believes in God has no right to force me to believe, an athiest has no right to try to force a believer to give up their faith.

But of one thing we can be sure: all humans are hypocrites at some point or another

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 10:15 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

Of course Yos, I agree with you. I cannt say that I am 100% sure there is a God, I just believe in him, to be 100% means I need hard solid evidence which I dont have. And you are very right, I would not force Christianity on you, why? Its pointless, if anyone asks me about it, I will gladly tell them my perspective but in the end as they say the choice is yours. And yes we can all be hypocrites, I know for one that I have been in the past.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 10:43 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Serene Katy, posted over a year ago

Oh there's always room for another hypocrite, don't ever use that as excuse to stay away from God.

Now, Martini, Yos et al, where two or three are gathered in God's name he will be present. Isn't that a nice thought :)

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 11:56 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Yos, posted over a year ago

He will be present? I always hoped that God is a she :)

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 12:3 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Serene Katy, posted over a year ago

Omnes

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 12:4 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

ariel, posted over a year ago

Its like, what came first the chicken or the egg.We would be here till pigs fly talking about God,atheists and polotics.Beliefs are personal and should not be forced apon anyone or held against anyone.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 12:18 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Serene Katy, posted over a year ago

Jubilate Deo

ni secular seculorum OMNES

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 12:23 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Yos, posted over a year ago

The irony of 'omnes' is that the Christian chuch kept its services in Latin so that the congregation couldn't understand what was being said. Knowledge = power so why give up the knowledge?

I should say that I am pro religion and spirituality, but generally anti organized religion, and very anti the politicizing of the church.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 12:48 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Dr Pete, posted over a year ago

There's a good quote from the film "Men in Black"

"A person is smart, people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. 1500 years ago everybody *knew* that the earth was the centre of the universe. 500 years ago everybody *knew* that the earth was flat and 15 minutes ago you *knew* that people were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll *know* tomorrow."

I believe that's good to try and keep your beliefs provisional; ie - keep an open mind and accept that they may be wrong. This though goes against a faith based religion because you can't really ever accept the possibility that it's wrong. You have to commit to those set of ideals and follow them regardless of evidence that may contradict them.

If you study theology, or the history of religion you quickly see that the central tenants of the christian faith survived and became mainstream through terrible acts of violence, manipulation and a will to construct and dominate one organised religion across the globe. This undisputedly challenges the idea that the Bible is the word of God, unless you believe that it was God's will that so many had to suffer and be punished for us to now have the "true" message.

I think much of the Bible is contaminated by humans need for power and control; and particularly by the Catholic church who used Christianity to become the mass religion that it still is today. Take a read of the Gnostic Gospels; text that mainstream Christianity will, without question, class as heresy, yet I think shows quite strongly that there is far more to the christian story than the bible admits.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 13:5 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Serene Katy, posted over a year ago

What's the difference between learning Latin and learning English? The primary intention was that more people could worship together through Latin. It's not really THAT difficult to understand, and the root of so many other languages.

So, Latin actually enlightened and unified in its use rather than created a cloak of misunderstanding. Yes it can be a mystical, beautiful language, thereby making it entirely suitable for the mysticism of Deity and worship thereof. :) Chill out my friends.

Alleluia Omnes Populi!!

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 13:28 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

Dr Pete have you thought about being the next Immanuel Kant or John Stuart Mill, why is it that every time you write something it always sounds soooooooooo intelligent and philosophied (is that even a word?)!!!!!!!!!!! In the next 10 years I hope you have a book out on something or the other because you dont insult other beliefs but you state a good point. I like it!!!

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 13:38 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

, posted over a year ago

I like the current and last, as he puts it, Dahli Lama.

I like that he says that the life goal is for knowledge and they teach what they have learnt. If it should happen that "God" made himself known in a physical sense so that the mortal eyes could see him and he came down and said, I am God, I am the Way, follow me; he would start teaching that as well.

For most humans; they have faith. Faith is to believe in something or someone which can not be seen and which you hope to be true.

We have faith in many things in this life. This site testifys to that.

We have faith in others and in the world. We have faith in humanity.

Faith is a gift that should not be denied.

Faith is a power.

Why are we getting caught up in defending what we claim to know or believe? Why do we take offense when another states things that we may disagree with...that is all it is...we each have our own unique sense of things and personal beliefs.

I think Martini just states his thoughts to get us thinking and to not be offended by it.

Faith can easily become knowledge. When you live a certain faith you come to learn that there is wisdom in such instructions and therefore living it becomes knowledge.

This is for anyone with any belief.

Truth is all around us and in everything and is for eveyone.

We are all of the same Earth and made of the same materials.

I do my best to see what I have in common with another when they make statements that may not necessarily agree with my way of things, my beliefs, my standards.

I don't agree with all Martini and others have said but I can understand what is being said. I can relate to most things others have to say.

I take no offense in generalized statements.

And when someone expresses themselves; it's very interesting and very revealing don't you think?

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 15:25 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted over a year ago

And thank you for the statements everyone. I believe that no one can really agree to anyone else's beliefs, thoughts, 'logics' and other general 'rationalizations' in accordance to matters that require a broader and more 'complex' range of understanding.

For myself, I am not good at articulating my thoughts into text. [two hours later] Then again, now I tire of this. It's a nice read. So I'll just read/listen instead of inputing into this thread. [sigh]

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 20:56 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

bonym, posted over a year ago

I disagree Martini, I think you do articulate your thoughts very well, but obviously we just disagree on our beliefs thats all and me being me, can get a tad mad when people say things about Christianity, sorry. x

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 21:4 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Serene Katy, posted over a year ago

Martini, you rascal, are you fishing for compliments??? You are extraneously capable of expressing yourself through the literary medium. In fact, it appears to be your God given gift ;)

Or should I say one of them? This thread reminds me; Have to book an appointment at the optician's.

Posted on 28 August 2006 @ 22:43 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted over a year ago

[laughs]

No really. For example, I only have a couple of friends who know how to read the meaning behind my words. It took me a long time to actually teach myself how to be 'straight-forward'. Geez, if you knew me 5+ years ago, you would probably pull out your hairs in frustration trying to understand.

Aside from this thread, the last time I publically started a debate or some sort of insight was quite a long time ago.

Ah whatever... Now onto the Best Sex Fantasy thread! Yeah sorry about that, I was too tired to get into sex... [wink]

Posted on 29 August 2006 @ 0:27 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 41 weeks ago

Wow. Someone's anger and resentment has tainted his post- I had a hard time taking you seriously after I began reading the barely restrained hatred and unacceptance of another's free will to choose for themselves what faith they will practice and align themselves with.

The key principles of justice, mercy, forgiveness, honesty, weaknesses are not present in your statements which Jesus advocated for all so that they can have a greater understanding.

Most contentions arise from lack of understanding-lack of ownership and lack of honesty and humility.

Me thinks you need big hugs and some bubble tea and oh yah...sushi.

*hugs*

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 0:16 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

Jesus may have tried to advocate those statements to everyone, and I'm sure he probably did a pretty good job of it, but my statements were based mainly on the perception of the religious and their beliefs.

In any debate, intricate detail is a good starting point. It goes to the core of the issue and people argue and discuss on that, but for that sort of debate to happen, a mediator and moderator will have to be present and a lot of time and a lot of words and questions and answers exchanged. Obviously, my words from my perspective was targeting a select group of religious people, but I wasn't really attacking the entirety of that religion. Though I am sure, it sounded that way.

If I was a machine, getting points across would be very easy, but debating them would be difficult as understanding perspective, emotion, and upbringing would not be a part of my logic.

The thing about my unacceptance of another's free will to choose for themselves with the faith they wish to practice isn't wholely accurate. What I tried to say was that if people choose to practice a faith, they should do so NOT proclaiming absoluteness, but instead seeking integration of their own mind into something more spiritual.

Eg: I have a friend who visits my blog frequently. She is a hardline Christian who doesn't believe in sex before marriage. She doesn't really preach her thoughts to her friends, and she used to demand that her lover become a Christian eventually. However, I've noticed that she (and quite a lot of others in the same religious sphere) would use loopholes and unsaid words from her Bible to do things that those with a logical mind would deem questionable. For example, sex to her means vaginal penetration. Blow jobs, hand jobs, rubbing the penis in between her giant breasts, and fingering and stuff like that aren't considered sex. They are considered foreplay, but not sex. I mean, really, how much farce can it truly get?

Fine whatever. And how about meaningless killing of life? Jesus advocated mercy, honesty, justice, etc, etc, etc. Yet, I find that the bulk of the religious people I know would kill on a whim. This does not necessarily have to be about killing another person.

For example, I have another friend who used to be a hardline Christian who taught the Book of Genesis to other Christian children every Sunday, whom I went hiking with. As we rested at a bridge with a beautiful natural creek below us, a grasshopper flew and landed beside us. It was minding its own business when suddenly my friend flicked it with his finger, not killing it on impact, sending it over the bridge to a rock, where it was still twitching and bleeding to death. My first thought, "Why did you do that?"

Yes, not all Christian, Catholics, Muslims, and the like do stuff like that. An individual is an individual with his or her own mentalities and emotions, but at the very least, if you can follow a faith through the words that Jesus or Muhammad preached, then the least you could do is live up to those same sort of principles.

Freedom of choice is great, but choosing then going in half hearted - I'm wondering, what's the point? ESPECIALLY when they so vigorously defend their own faiths.

I have no religion. I have nothing to defend but my own principles and my own standards of living. If what I do is questionable, then there is no religion I can fall back on as an excuse for my own doings. If I what I do hurts others, then I implore you to stand your ground, point at me, shake your head, and say, "Martini, WTF?"

I won't feel good at first, but I'll listen and I'll think on it, and eventually if it's logical to me, I might upgrade my way of thinking, and proceed to change my views accordingly without hurting others as much. However, if you choose to align yourself with a religion, do so as you so defend and dictate. Don't align yourself to a religion because you think you can get away with stuff, and still go to heaven.

Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad - they're all probably wonderful human beings with a vast wealth of consideration and passion. However, as humanity proceeds through times coming and going, where is progression when you align yourself to statements long outdated?

People don't need to be told what is right and what is blatantly wrong. Religious scripture is great, and should work as a guideline for people who need it if they are confused, but taking it as an absolute text and then do something that supposedly isn't written or twist it in a way where they can get away with things just totally mind boggles me.

Also about forgiveness, I WOULD JUST LOVE to see HOW a mother can forgive a guy for repeatedly raping her 5 year son, and the "god bless him" for 'shedding his sins' by becoming a Christian in jail. How convenient.

If you ever come by Richmond/Vancouver, give me a ring. I'll treat you to all you can eat sushi at Tokyo Ichiban. Excellent nigiri tuna and spicy tuna cones.

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 1:24 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 41 weeks ago

So only those who practice no religion or who have no values, standards to govern themselves by-only they are exempt from judgement? Only they are entitled to mercy?

The thing I adore about Jesus and the new testament is that he did teach accountability for one's choices-taught that there are consequences for all choices be it good or bad. He taught that it is so easy to pass judgement and condemn others and turn a blind eye to ourselves- he re-taught that one needs to worry about their own doings and focus and commit to doing right before singling out another and faulting them.

You are harsh in your judgement in condemning those who stumble, make mistakes- we all inherit weaknesses when we entered this mortal world.

Jesus was the one to introduce mercy, long suffering, patience. Before him-it was justice only; an eye for an eye-passing judgement and condemning.

We each our responsible for our own choices, we are to govern ourselves in a manner that would and should do no harm.

Ideally some think that making others do and sumbit to a will, a practice will benefit everyone. I disagree.

You overlook the true importance of free agency. Let those make their own choices and also let them except the consequences.

Weither you are religious, believe in a higher power or just believe in man and science- you must be aware that certain life choices will bring happiness, peace or they will bring further strive, hardships, heartache.

You either learn to accept and learn how to cope in this life, learn to gain a perspective that will bring you more peace and success or you do not.

The majority of this Earth strongly support that there are indeed standards and there are ideas, values, actions that do far more great for the better good of humankind.

Let's not lose focus.

Bitterness and hard feelings are an easier route than one of forgiveness, compassion, and fairness.

I am not one who shies from taken the higher, more difficult road. This does not say I have made mistakes, I have stumbled, or I had fallen. But the great thing in this life is every moment holds promise-every second is an oppurtunity for redemption.

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 4:0 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

Comparitively (sp?), my words are no harsher than the perception in which the religious perceive in what their God has set under an ultimatum of hell or heaven, with the illusion of free will. A lot of people will say that Jesus and God is one and the same, but I beg to differ. It seemed as though Jesus 'rebelled' against the absoluteness of the religious god and proposed compassion and sanctuary for those who seek it.

And about turning a blind-eye to myself, if ever, I think if you know me more, if ever, I would tell you that amongst all the creations of humanity and life, I consider myself one of, if not, the most flawed and perfect human being. Imperfection and perfection being a paradox of each other - one without the other would not make sense obviously.

[grins]

Didn't the introduction between you and I start out on a deliverance of misinterpreted religious words?

Anyway, I've read your points, and there is nothing you said that isn't twisted, meaning that your words are not twisted. However, as much as I would like to discuss this with you, it's better done over open and closed territory with booze and snacks. I pretty much grew tired of this thread about a year ago.

Also, if you did not know, the ten points made in my thread starter weren't mine. They were copied from else where. I believe I got them from Digg.com.

I believe everyone has judgment, even for those who say they don't. Just because you don't say it, it doesn't mean you don't have it. When you align yourself with a belief system - eg: a faith or a religion, you are telling yourself "THIS is the most compatible one for me." Other faiths or religions don't work for you, is because you either haven't had the heart to understand them, or you were forced into the one you are in right now.

What Jesus taught is what Buddha taught. Why aren't you Buddhist? Jesus taught about god and heaven. Buddha taught about nirvana and enlightenment. Jesus said that only he can ever be closest to god. Buddha taught that everyone can eventually become Buddha. So what was it about Buddhism, or Islam, or Catholicsm, or any other religion that you did not align yourself to? Why did you choose Christianity when you seem spiritual yourself and philosophical? Why not God Without Religion? Why not spirituality without religion?

I did not overlook the importance of free agency. I didn't say it in my entries because the focus wasn't on free will. However, since you brought up free will, I'm wondering, why proclaim that one would go to hell if that person does not live up to the standards given to us by one single human being from an era of war or open torture?

Alas, I knew there will be misinterpretation in my entries. It's a given. It's not like I can open my head and attach my brain to others. There are tons of things unsaid in my entries. I guess the better way to have said them were if someone asked about it. However, since my words seems to harsh (compared to what relatively?), people often just look at that as they are.

BTW, this thread was in response to a comment made by the forum troll Anja over a year ago whom someone of a 'higher power' warned me about afterwards.

[sighs]

Anyway, there is a 'twisted' thing I am thinking and feeling right now, but rather than say it here, I'll keep it to myself and pardon myself.

Cheers.

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 4:34 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

Come to think of it, here are a few other questions for you or anyone who wishes to answer:

1) You say you do not judge a person. So how do you tell what is right and what is wrong?

Yes, there are issues concerning a scenerio, but someone who binge drinks, goes home and beats his kids and then rapes the wife and repeats daily tells you what? In your mind, if you truly do NOT judge a person, then the person who abuses his family is NOT abusing his family, nor is he wrong at what he does. Don't judge the man for what he does right? Only God can do that right?

2) Free will - to choose what you desire to do and follow in organization, in partners, in friendship and lifestyle. In the end, you die and that's that. However, in religion, the absolute consequence is Heaven for the good and faithful and Hell for the wicked. The question is for religion, if it is free will, then where is the free will after we die? Why do we need to go to Heaven and why do we need to go the Hell and burn for all of eternity?

If I am a dad, and my wife and I bring a child to this world, regardless whether s/he is homosexual or hetero, or bisexual, I would wish him/her the best and continue to be his/her father. If s/he turned out wicked, it would make things a lot harder, I am sure, but regardless, wouldn't my ultimate wish is that he or she come out of that wickedness and do good?

If humanity can live for over a thousand years each person, do we not have the power to teach each other, let alone have religion teach us to be 'better' people? Why limit the age of people to a measley 75 years on average, and furthering that, an average of 50 years on average back in ancient times? Where is free will for those who can't learn as fast as others in a span of 60 to 80 years?

You said that Jesus taught humility and compassion and knowing yourself and changing yourself for good before condeming others, then here's another question: if the religious god is omnipotent and spans out an infinite amount of dimensions and timelines, then why bother creating a race of living creatures that is LESS than God? Why not create a race that is equal to god and equal to Jesus?

I thought about this when I watched my brother play a game of Sims, where he created a family of people and then watched them do things like go to the washroom, or lock them up in a room and let them starve to death, or play pranks on them, etc. Then it dawned on me. The religious perception of God is an unloved geek who created humanity so he/she/it can get his/her/its amusement from a rather dull and boring life. Then create Jesus, Moses, and Muhhamed and sends them to Earth to preach how great the malevolent god really is, and that people misinterpret his/her/its actions of mass destruction as evil, when in fact, it's all in the plan.

What plan?

A great leader leads his/her men/women through a coaching and management system. Jesus died roughly 2000 years ago, and since then God wants us to follow his words through and through without a single reborn deity to fill in the place of Jesus or any magical being from ancient history for a world fresh and unlearned, torn with the ravages of war, anarchy, and dictatorship.

What is happening in Israel right now? What is happening in parts of Africa? What the hell is the USA doing in Iraq? Where is our next savior? Where is the messenger of God that should be here right now to tell us what to do?

In a more accurate approach to things, I am not truly condemning the individuals who believe in a certain faith. That is the fallacy of humanity and our wee little brains. No, on the contrary, I am in fact, probably judging the religious perception of God and religion itself.

Free will? When there is no Hell or Heaven, then truly there is free will. Until then...

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 5:0 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

Lastly, regardless of the 'harshness' of my words, I love you all, well, a lot of you. If I can say it as a human being, I will say at least this: If you think religion's God really truly loves you, then our loving giving parents must be God's God multiplied by a zillion.

Yes, I know, some people can take my sarcasm and read between the lines. Some people can't and get offended and/or hurt. It's a given. Can't please everyone. There are those with wit and structure who may deem my view as extreme and poorly constructed. Then there are those who read and nod and smirk and think and question and answer their own questions and ultimately, just not care in the end, and go on about their own business.

This thread, like 99% of all of my blog entries are just to pass time. Like games, like jogging, and running, and reading books and walking around, and stuff. It's an aspect.

As far as judgment goes, I think my judgment on people aren't as absolute as religion may judge you. In fact, isn't my 'judgment' more like an opinion, and isn't an opinion simply a collective ideal of thoughts and experiences mashed together to form words of a sentence for others to hear and read?

My gosh Fade, reading your words is giving me two feelings: 1) misery and 2) being very turned on.

[laughs]

Misery because I can see how I have baited myself into another religious 'discussion' where I was really just venting in raw format.

Being very turned on because you did NOT beat around the bush like 90% of all the people I have talked with on this subject, AND it's clear, and meaningful. Wow. Very nice.

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 5:13 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 41 weeks ago

Well to be clear- the scriptures do not judge-they instruct, guide, teach one on how to be fair minded, peaceful, loving, accepting, tolerant, patient...

I do understand that you like to express yourself, verbalize and perhaps you do so to further your understanding of yourself. Maybe sometimes you write what you will then after some reflection, decide that maybe you were only half serious.

I find no fault when someone is seeking wisdom, understanding and I think that is what alot of your journals do as well as vent at the injustices and hypocrisies of life, the world, and the beings in it. The whole injustice of the mindless, thoughtless horde.

I do believe that you and I, as well as others on this site do indeed have a common purpose in that we expect to rise above the horde.

Turned on?

You know what totatlly did it for me? Your humble post that exposed your soul. *wink*

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 14:51 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 41 weeks ago

About that heaven and hell...there are three instances I know of that the Bible speaks about THREE DEGREES of GLORY which refutes the Catholic teaching of heaven and hell.

One passage goes on to explain that as the star, the moon, and the sun all have differing degrees of light-so does man and there are prepared three degrees of glories for such purposes.

It would not be fair and just for a Loving Heavenly Father to send his children to this Earth knowing we would inherit weakness of mortal man. He instructs in his works that man is expected to rise above his natural state, become more Christlike, humble yourselves as children, gird thy loins in righteousness. God, our Heavenly Father wants for us to all return to him. He prepared a way through our Eldest Brother, Jesus.

Jesus states that no greater love hath a man for his brothers than he shall lay down his life for them.

Too many people don't realize that his sacrifice was a means for us to repent of sins we commit against ourselves, another, and to God.

Not too many people understand fully the purpose of Jesus.

God is a loving and just God. He expects us all to be accountable for all we do and has said we will each be judged according to our own works.

I was taught by my parents that just because you go to church and pray or pay tithe does not automatically qualify you for the highest kingdom. It is through continual practicing, living the standards and principles and repenting regularly-all your life.

Repenting means to sin no more, in that you don't keep having sexual relations with your brother's wife or dog...repent, and then go out to do it again. It means you also commit, rededicate to living those teachings and having the wisdom to obstain from giving into to temptation.

"Man looketh on the outer appearances while God looketh on the heart."

This does not mean God judges you on your intentions- he judges on your word and deeds.

When you hear of those people who believe they speak on Jesus's behave and feel self righteous in condeming another to hell-they forget that Jesus is just and will judge accordingly. Jesus will not put someone in a kingdom he will not feel comfortable or happy in.

Three degrees of Glory is just.

Only those who choose to deny God will be cast out.

And if you don't hear the Gospel in it's true and fullness-you are given a chance in the next.

I don't know. The God I was taught was more loving, more forgiving and does love each and everyone of us and is disappointed, and sadden when he sees a child stray or turn him away.

I do know and have a testimony that there is a living God, our Heavenly Father, who loves us all and wants us all to succeed in this life and in the next. That's why he gave us his teachings. He gave us a way.

It's unfortunate that those who wanted their will over God's to come to pass-that they felt the need to twist and pervert his message. Because of this, not too many people are aware of just how amazing and loving he really is.

Being I am a parent; I know I would hurt to no end if my children stopped listening to my instruction and choose ways and practices that would cause them suffering. I would be most wounded if my children stopped having a relationship with me-stopped all communication and forgot from where they came.

I am glad I have the understanding I do. It helps me to not be so bitter, cruel, harsh. It gives me direction and purpose. I have hope and faith. I am content.

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 15:9 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

Actually, when it comes down to it, if you're content with what you have become, then that's really all that matters. Whatever faith and belief and organization you follow, is really up to you.

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 21:4 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 41 weeks ago

Again...free agency. It does matter how you use it though. *wink*

I think we are on the same page-just take slightly different approaches to it. :P

Posted on 11 October 2007 @ 23:30 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

rcn, posted 41 weeks ago

I just had to add something to this. Just something to think about, since their is someone from both sides. I have asked this question from therapists I know through psychiatrists, and their answer is, "no scientific or psychiatric reasoning why it works this way, but it's been proven to work over and over again."

Question: Women who are raped. Children who are molested. Relationship abuse.

Why is it that some of these victims, after carrying stacks of guilt, PTSD, depression, anxiety, phobias, etc. When they extend true forgiveness to the person who violated them, why does the pain, disorder, phobia etc. disappear as if they were never afflicted with it?

Religion, or scientific reasoning?

Posted on 13 October 2007 @ 6:52 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

I think it's a bit of both. Religion allows the belief that oneself is unified with others of a common goal, happiness, and such. Science provides a deeper medical and psychological understanding of the issues.

For myself, I don't quite take a side. It's actually what works and how much of it makes sense to me. Mind you, with a little solid history, one side can go a long way. Meaning, if say science in its absoluteness provides fruity explanations without theorical proof, then it's just as fruity of religion if it gives explanations without reasonable theory.

Eg: if science said that the negative issues concerning victims disappear after they join a faith following because people's minds are being manipulated by their religious leaders - then this explanation is hokey, thus the science corresponding this is hokey.

However if science said the negative issues concerning victims disappear after they join a faith following because of the personal integration into a society that desires a common good for all, that everyone is learned to love and forgive everyone, and to work together to do good for humanity, then the explanation of science would be considered legit, thus science corresponding that is legit.

This same goes for religion. If religion dictates that victims shed their negativities after joining a religious following because invisible angels come from heaven and sing happy songs into these less fortunate, and read the bible, it will automatically wipe away all fears and troubles - then that sort of explanation is hokey, thus the religion that dictates that is hokey.

HOWEVER, if religion gives a reasonable theory such as that Jesus taught compassion, honesty, and to lend a helping hand to your troubled neighbors, then the forethought that all religious people of that following would be the same, thus any victim of abuse would feel like they have entered a huge family that will support and love them. This sort of explanation is reasonable theory (there are other terms mind you). So religion that dicate this will be considered proven reasoning, thus the religion that corresponds to this is a proven religion.

On a similar topic, I remember asking one of my female Christian friends about personal thoughts. She said that her individual thoughts are god's thoughts, and that her choices are god's choices and a part of his plan. I personally didn't quite like that. I always encouraged personal growth and personal thought progression. So our differences layed there. Her thoughts are god's thoughts and her choices are god's choices. Where as my thoughts are my own, and my choices are somewhat my own. I say "somewhat" because I still believe that there is some higher force that may influence the choices layed out before me.

Anyway, like I said, I neither side with religion nor science, though I do lean towards science with spirituality more so than religion and a god or the trinity.

Posted on 13 October 2007 @ 9:26 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 41 weeks ago

I could see what she meant.

We have our agency to choose, we choose what thoughts we will have,entertain, and put into action.

Scriptures say to give up the natural man and become sons and daughters of God living, doing his will which means keep the commandments.

In my belief- man will be judge for his own works and Adam's transgression is his own. Therefore the sins of the father just means that maybe if a father/mother chooses to drink-the effects of the home and influence reaches down to generations but if I were to kill someone-that is my sin and I will stand accountable for it.

I like that if ignorance or hatered is taught by parents-the greater sin is on them than on the children. There is mercy for a certain ignorance.

Make sense?

Posted on 13 October 2007 @ 22:24 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

Oh yes of course. Away from religion for a moment here. I have always believed that law makers and politicians should be punished more severely than common civilians for breaking the same laws. I mean, it is those same law makers and politicians that make the laws that civilians try to abide to, yet they cannot even follow their own developments?

Posted on 13 October 2007 @ 23:9 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 41 weeks ago

Then again, a lot of regional laws are so messed up, that even common civilians get punished severely for minor crimes.

Anyway, back on topic and slightly off the current subject, I've always wondered about the story of Adam and Eve. If incest is frowned upon today as being the supposedly #1 or #2 cause of birth defects (though that theory has still yet to be proven), as well as for 'moral' reasons, wouldn't the procreation of Adam and Eve and their children procreating together also be considered immoral?

The thing that I can't quite reason with is why god created a man with a penis that is capable of having an erection and a woman with a vagina that is capable of getting wet through arousal, and then expect the man and the woman to not have sex ever? Why didn't god create two asexual people, or why didn't god create another god to share godhood, or instead of creating angels, and Adam and Eve, why didn't god just reverse himself and abolish existence altogether?

I was just thinking that it's not logical to continue to make humans suffer through the actions of Adam and Eve for thousands of years through a compassionate loving god.

Of course this is a different sub topic mind you.

Posted on 13 October 2007 @ 23:23 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

rcn, posted 40 weeks ago

I did become Christian. I think people who don't believe are afraid. The same as kids are afraid of the dark, or the bump in the night.

My mother when she was young said she never believed in ghosts, but at the exact minute of her grandmothers time of death, there was a knock on their front door, and no one there, when they opened the front door there was a knock on the back door, and again no one there. All though this happened her belief level of this happening is still the same. She experienced it, but believes there had to be something other than the obvious.

I am not Catholic, all though the family I grew up with is. I change because at my church, they read a chapter right from the bible, then explain what they read. That's it. My first experience going to that church, a previous non believer spoke. She got talked into attending church by a couple of Christian women who just seemed to not leave her alone until she went. While she was there she said she remembers people singing, then an hour and a half later it was over. She couldn't repeat anything that was said during the mass. She said during this time she remained seated and while the pastor was talking it felt as if there was a river running through her body. She said it felt as if all of her sin, hurt, guilt washed away with that feeling.

I'm not saying both sides aren't right. I think some of the statements are overly thought and slightly distorted. We hear so many different views, it's hard not to pick up their views as ours and get off track.

Our thoughts and actions are our own. I'm Christian but God doesn't process his thoughts through me. He even tries to provide all of us with gifts, but all though their offered, we still have the choice to accept or deny. Even many evolutionists have come to the conclusion that their is a higher creator. Their theories were good, but they kept hitting dead ends. One recent study by scientist regarding the big bang was to view past explosions and create some of their own. They view hundreds of them, and have concluded an explosion does not and is not capable of creating order. Our order is that such as moving the earth less than 5 degrees either way will freeze the planet or burn it up. They also stated in their conclusions that coming from one bang, everything created from it would have the same material makeup.

I think the problem lies that many people don't acknowledge anything they can't see, touch, hear, or smell. I received an e-mail once that said "I'd rather live as if there is a God and find out there isn't, than to live like there isn't and find out there is."

I do believe your other statements about corrupt officials. Just like anything else, if the leaders don't follow their own laws, how can they expect anyone else too. It's like that in a business I was in, if I wasn't working, my organization wouldn't either. People tend to do what the leader does.

As far as the confusion about what's right and wrong, so many things, when you look at statutes, are man made laws. We have a government that is trying to play God. If you do one small things that may violate the rights of another, they hurry up and pass a law to punish for it. It's too far out of control. I listen to the news and now it's like "you guys are really taking something messed up and really screwing it up worse." It's like common sense does not come with politics. It drives me nuts.

Anyway. I'm not trying to convert you over. I just believe some things are not meant to be explained. And we can corrupt ourselves by trying too hard to do it.

Posted on 14 October 2007 @ 0:38 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 40 weeks ago

Well the bible I read states they were husband and wife-who had the authority to wed them? God. They walked in his presence.

He gave them two commandments, 1) Be fruitful and multiply 2) Do not partake of the tree of knowledge.

Tree of knowledge as stated in King James Bible, the knowledge of good and evil and further states partaking of it would cause them death.

The whole cleaving of one flesh is of the bonds of marriage. In the very beginning was laid out the purpose and charges of man and woman, husband and wife.

Note the greater commandment was to be fruitful and multiply-have children. It was the greater commandment.

We don't know how long they were in the garden. And while in the garden, they were as little children-knowing not right from wrong. Did they have agency? Were they accountable?

Now I don't know why other christians from other faiths believe Eve committed a great offense to God. In my belief-she was of righteous decent being the first daughter and granted the privelage of being the Mother of all mankind. She figured out that to keep the greater commandment she would have to partake of the tree as with the gift of knowing right from wrong; all mankind was granted the gift of free agency.

This is central to Heavenly Father's plan as he wants for each of his children to choose to return to them of their own will. He gave us the scriptures and his son to prepare the way for us to return.

Adam and Eve, with the fall, brought the gift of free agency to all and introduced mortal death. The second death the scriptures speak of is spiritual death that occurs from sinning.

This is God plan is to bring about all being on Earth their immortality. Jesus's sacrifice gave all men and women the gift to an immortal body-all qualify for this that have lived on the Earth and to those that currently do and those to come.

The promise of eternal inheritance that is spoken of in Jude 9:15 is for those who live and keep the commandments and repent continually-after being judged at the final judgement- those that were Saints will be found by Jesus to enter into the Highest degree, highest kingdom and live forever with God.

I was taught that life is a probationary state so we prove ourselves by our faith and works.

In my believe-we teach how to be accountable and responsible. That our choices are also for future generations.

It makes sense to me.

So God's specifically says in the scriptures that the power of procreation; sexual and spiritual intimacy is to be reserved for Husband and Wife. It is a charge and responsibilty that when abused;was foretold that it would destroy families and bring about the destruction of man.

How do you think the human race is doing?

Posted on 14 October 2007 @ 1:5 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 40 weeks ago

You know- I think the reason why it makes sense to me is that I was taught God is eternal. Our spirits are eternal.

We lived with him before we came to this Earth and he put a veil of forgetfulness over our minds so that the gift of free agency comes to pass.

We lived with our Heavenly parents,yes I said parents, and we grew in knowledge. When we realized that we were different from our Father. He had a physical body and we were spirits. We loved him so much and wanted to be like him. That is when the plan was created.

There were two that were great spirits, one was our elder brother, Jesus, and the other Lucifer. They came to Heavenly Father with their plans.

Lucifer offered He would make us all return and the glory be his. ( No free agency)

Jesus offered that he would come to the Earth to prepare the means to return to Heavenly Father but said that free agency would be the means. Let them decide for themselves by the life they lead, if they will return and the glory be yours,Father in Heaven.

Whe were asked which plan, all of us in our spirit form let out a shout for joy. Chapter 12, Revelations, King James Version.

It states when Satan was cast out due to rebellion-he sought to overthrow the Kingdom of God and sit on the throne. He and his followers ( 1/3 of the host of heaven fell) were cast out in their spirit state-never to receive a physical body. All who live and have walked and currently walk and will walk this Earth-we are greater than he is as we have gained our physical bodies. In his jealousy, anger, resentment, pride-he seeks to pull down as many as he can. Even people today can be like this.

Angry and hateful towards those that succeed, who are happy, who have peace. They spit on them and mock them and call them down. Wanting them to fall so that they can feel better themselves-than they can continue doing evil; no one likes to be made wrong.

Posted on 14 October 2007 @ 1:24 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

Fade878, posted 40 weeks ago

You know- I think the reason why it makes sense to me is that I was taught God is eternal. Our spirits are eternal.

We lived with him before we came to this Earth and he put a veil of forgetfulness over our minds so that the gift of free agency comes to pass.

There were two that were great spirits, one was our elder brother, Jesus, and the other Lucifer. They came to Heavenly Father with their plans.

Lucifer offered He would make us all return and the glory be his. ( No free agency)

Whe were asked which plan, all of us in our spirit form let out a shout for joy. Chapter 12, Revelations, King James Version.

I personally enjoy reading the scriptures. There is so much knowledge and wisdom in them. They hold the answers to many people's cries of justice-they answer the whys.

You were taught at school about the sun and the moon and stars-that there was a purpose-that the Earth spins in orbit around the sun. You believed this in faith. All children have to believe in that what they are being taught is true. Eventually believing in it-it becomes knowledge. There is a witness.( The Bible has this knowledge already-Adam was aware of such knowledge as he was instructed by God)

How can someone describe to someone what salt tastes like? Without saying salt?

Man does not understand all knowledge. We do not know all things.

We have faith the Sun will rise tomorrow. It does not become knowledge until it happens.

There is a witness as to how we can learn to know if God, the Eternal Father is our loving Father in Heaven, and there is a means to come to know that Jesus is the son of God, the only begotten. Jesus himself states that he will send a comforter, that by all things will be made known. The Holy Ghost.

For those who truly desire to know truth, the must have three things: a SINCERE heart, with REAL intent, and having FAITH in Christ.

By the power of the Holy Ghost, all things will be made known.

Posted on 14 October 2007 @ 1:41 (London time) - permalink
(Log in to flag spam/offensive/junk messages to moderators)

REPLY TO MESSAGE or Start a new topic

martini, posted 40 weeks ago

@RCN: "I think people who don't believe are afraid. The same as kids are afraid of the dark, or the bump in the night."

The same can be said about those who believe are afraid of the "What if"