A
female
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes:Was he trying to deceive me? There are two aspects to an action. What was the intention behind something (the mental part) and what action was taken/not taken (the physical part).What is bugging me on an issue is what was the intention behind somethingWhy focus on this part? Because if someone did not mean or understand the full implications of what they were doing then that has to be taken into account. So, the story:Have recently got together with my man. He is actually a very kind and loving man. We've known each other for about a year as friends and took the plunge to move in with each other as bf/gf about a month ago. Spontaneous and great. We get on very well.The storm cloud:What I didn't realise was that prior to our plunge to getting together as a couple he had previously (about two weeks) made a female friend. Information given: He liked her, had not slept with her. She has a husband and girlfriend (Oh yes) and operates in an open situation). (Oh joy!) He said he had not slept with her as she does not physically sleep with anyone other than her husband (who knows about the gf) and her other friendships. Yes, you just read that.I informed him well...that's lovely but we are now a couple so, please tell her it is over. Ta everso.Now...the Grrr-ing begins on my side:1) He informed me that prior to getting together with me he had invited her over to stay and...yes...I am about to write this...would I mind if she stayed over as she is a nice person and I would get on with her. (Yes, I just wrote that sentence).My reply: No. And I gave a good reason: I am not entering into a relationship with a man who is maintaining a 'back-burner' on my watch. I am not going to be-friend his new friend because she is a 'nice person'.He understood what I meant and said he would let her down. Good, I said and thank you for understanding my reasons.When will you let her know? He replied that she is very nice person and he didn't want to hurt her and he would let her down in his own time, which would be soon. I thanked him.About a week passed and I asked about her. He told me that he had sent her a text explaining that she couldn't stay as it made me uncomfortable. He explained that I shouldn't feel threatened as he loved me and his relationship with her had only been a kiss and some sexy texting.A kiss? This was not mentioned. Yes, he was sure he told me. Oh no, he didn't.I asked if since he had been with me had they exchanged some sexy texts...he said no and I could look at his texts, which I declined.Another week had passed since the apparent go away text and he said he had spoken with her. Excuse me? He had called her to talk to her. He said he thought he had two other texts to go before it was final - he wanted to do it nicely.He then told me...grrr...that he had bought her a pair of boots as a present and would I...yes...would I like them?? I will leave it to your imagination my icy glare.I am travelling on business for a few days and told him that unless he finalises it, I am not returning. He said he would do it. That is no more. Deleted and blockedMy beef: I am deeply resentful that his intention was to continue with this woman under the guise of a 'friendship' and make it seem perfectly ok. The fact that if I had not asked, expressed my views and made a demand it would continue. I want to get beyond my resentment but it is that feeling of someone taking you for a fool. And now the worst part...trust.What do you think?
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reader, anonymous, writes (31 October 2017): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionhello there. Just to give you the conclusion. It is ended. I returned (my stuff was there, so I had to go there anyway and so I thought it would be easier to take my stuff at the same time, if I had to). I asked him if he ended it with her, he said he had been too ill to do it but we could write it together. (Can you hear my lack of respect coming through?)I decided internally at that moment it was over but as I was tired from travelling, that I would as calm as I could and arrange to leave the next day and have an evening there. He told me he had arranged for us to go out to dinner with his friends but realised maybe he should have asked me. I say it was ok. Whilst talking, I was expressing my view on a subject and he told me that I was full of shit. I told him that was unacceptable to say that to anyone. Cutting out the rest of the details, we rowed an I left.I am not sad, I am happy to be out of it. I would like to thank you for being there while I was going through this. Honeypie, thank you for your help and for reminding me about gaslighting. I was starting to get him twisting my words and telling me I was crazy - high burn gaslighting, huh??
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 October 2017): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you for your answer, that was very helpful. I hadn't actually considered this from a (slow burn) gas lighting angle and so thank for raising this aspect.
As it is a new romantic relationship, I am working out what exactly am I dealing with here. I suspect, worst case scenario, I am dealing with a covert narcissist or at least someone with narcissist tendencies. The dragging out of this issue, not bothered enough that this may be creating emotional stress does not seem like a big enough motivation to end it. He says he loves me and will do this for me but as yet...nothing. So, what does that tell me in terms of his word. Not much.
Thanks for listening....
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female
reader, Honeypie  + ♥, writes (29 October 2017):
 When I say gas lighting (on slow burn) it's (for me) when a person is trying to make it about YOU. Like YOU are in the wrong... not them. Not taking responsibility and/or refusing to look at the situation from YOUR point of view.
He isn't going "full burn" by calling you jealous, crazy or insecure - "slow burn" by trying to paint her as innocent, fragile and REALLY a friend who NEEDS his attention and someone to talk to.
And slow burn in the sense that he SAYS he is doing this for you, out of love... yet... hasn't done it. So again it's ABOUT you being the REASON for the "drama" or "issue" - not HIM. Nor his stubborn instance to hold on to this "back up" chick.
If that makes sense?
If he WANTED to understand WHY you feel the way you do, he would try and put himself in your shoes. He is IGNORING what you are saying and feeling. Just giving you enough lip-service to making you back off... a little.
Though YES, he could have lied to you. However, I think he wants you to KNOW and ACCEPT that this is how it is. Lying really doesn't benefit him. Again, if he TRULY feels he isn't doing anything "wrong" then there is no need to lie. Right?
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 October 2017): This is verified as being by the original poster of the question...I know about gaslighting and what it is. I was just wondering if you would kindly expand on your comment about you thinking I am being a tad gaslighted on slow burn - just so I can completely understand why you perceive that. I hadn't thought about the gaslighting angle of this and now I am...thank you.
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reader, anonymous, writes (29 October 2017): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you once again for taking the time to reply - I appreciate it.Well...the thing I have to do is analyse what were/what are his true intentions towards he and make my decision in moving forward further with him. There is much good and love in our relationship, hence I am even bothering. How big a deal is this other woman situation? To me...when we got together there was a quite a close time scale between their 'thing' and us getting together as a couple and moving in with one another, and so a gentle so long and thank you to her was appropriate but it has progressed into an issue where I am prepared to walk away. I at first thought they had a 'frisson' thing and then about a week into living with him, he told me they had kissed but it was no big deal. I didn't know that and I would have been much more on shutting the relationship down. We are still here, a month later, with him telling me I am wrong to ask him and as I don't understand their relationship - he is grateful to her and they are friends....zzzzzzz....He will shut it down for me because he loves me (not because he thinks it is inappropriate).The truth is...the real truth is...he likes her (he loves me but he likes her and fancies her) and doesn't want to end it with her completely (they were just getting going, weren't they when we hooked up). She clearly doesn't want to end it either. The awful thing is there is truth in what he says he thought it would just fade away BECAUSE, when I think on it, there is NO opportunity for them to meet up anymore. They are no longer in the same city and she can't come over. So, it would fade away not by INTENTION but by CIRCUMSTANCES. This really bugs me. Yes, he is right it would (physically) fade away but NOT because he wants it to - just a logical outcome. So...what would be left? Sexy texting? Sexy photos? Or just the ole back burner - stay in 'friendly' contact (how, how are you?) but with the true meaning of...have your circumstances changed, can I come over now? They have not evolved into friends - a pause button was put on their 'thing'. If he were single they would be seeing each other - therefore, not friends. So...what do I do with this knowledge? He won't ever admit this is the situation because it would relationship suicide to do so. Yeah...honey...I'm staying in contact in case we don't work out. Of course not. Now...he could just lie to me. He could just have said...yup...all sorted and carried on without my knowing it. Many men would have done that - just not mentioned it. Why do you think he didn't take that route?Anyway, let's see what the next delay tactic is...any suggestions? My cat's ill...I can't find my phone...
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female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (28 October 2017):
I'm sorry OP, that he doesn't seem to grasp YOUR reasoning why you asked him to end it the first time. He is seeing YOU as being unreasonable because it's NOT what he wants to do.
Can you imagine having to go through ALL these "negotiations" EVERY TIME you two don't see eye to eye?
And adding on cancer (for you to pity her) and sad dog story( more pity and less sexy story) and then adding that her husband doesn't "allow" her to XYZ (see she is no threat because she will, of course, obey her husband, right?) But here is where he shot himself in the foot... Because he ALSO stated that HE initiated that "infamous" kiss. So he was (and perhaps still is) interested in her sexually. We don't kiss people we aren't hoping to go further with (unless it's a friendly peck on the cheeks or a kiss for a family member). Now IF her husband was/is SO against her kissing other people wouldn't MOST women have backed away from a guy who just out of the blue kissed them? But she didn't do that... They instead got into sexting...
I think he is trying to make you FEEL bad for not wanting him to have a "friend" like her (not that she is some "super whore" or anything like that but she IS someone he has expressed sexual interest in and was planning for her to come visit.) Seems like he is gaslighting you a tad here... on slow burn... All these "reasons" why YOU should feel sorry for her and have absolutely NO reason to think anything inappropriate is going on.
Again, could it be that he is really honest... It could but it doesn't seem that likely. You two may not agree on boundaries and standards. And THAT might be a good reason you two won't work out.
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reader, anonymous, writes (27 October 2017): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you all for your comments, your time and your insights. They have all been very helpful, so thank you.
The update:
So...where were we? Ok...so spoke again today on the phone (we are always polite and kind to each other), caught up on what we were doing and then he said I will see you on Sunday. I said, well, my love, that depends on you shutting down the that relationship. He replies that he thought we would be talking about it when I got back. I replied...no...I am not coming back unless it is shut down and then we will talk about why I made the ultimatum and why we got to where we got to...(and hopefully never get to ultimatums again).
(you're going to enjoy this...). He said he would, of course, shut it down if that is exactly what I want (hmmm...how many requests have I made plus an ultimatum?)
He asked that I hear him out, which I did without any interruptions of why... I...that is me... was wrong about this. He said that this woman is not what I think she is. She is no threat. He then told me that I think she is something she is not (I have never remarked on anything about her lifestyle choice) that is not a predatory dominatrix or after anything from him. Remember the boots - the present to her that he then offered to me - she had turned them down because her husband wouldn't like it. She has had depression and cancer (a frozen puppy with an injured paw as well?) and that she didn't drink and when they went out he bought champagne and she drank it and got drunk. (yes, I am actually still writing this stuff - you couldn't make it up)and he instigated the kiss (poor little dominatrix). She then said they should never speak of the kiss (he husband doesn't allow it). He said that she had been a support for him, as he had been pretty down when he met her, and that he was grateful for her kindness to him at that time.
He said that he was not into the S&M scene, had no intention of going down that route, did not want to meet up with her for anything but was finding it hard to shut down -deleting/blocking this woman as it was too brutal and not necessary. He figured it would just naturally fade away.
I said that I had listened and I would think over what he said and I would talk to him tomorrow.
I actually don't really know where to start on this. What leaps to mind is firstly. When I first asked to for him to shut it down, he said he would and he would do it in his own time. This was followed up with I think there a few more texts to go and now...I figured it will just naturally fade down.
Interesting that he didn't mention what they planned to do when she came to stay? Play scrabble, I suppose.
I will give my reply tomorrow. Shut it down...
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female
reader, 02DuszJ +, writes (27 October 2017):
 YOU want exclusivity. He understands that but wants to BS you and whinge so he can have his cake and eat it
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female
reader, 02DuszJ +, writes (27 October 2017):
You're an astute woman and i think you should listen to your gut telling you the simple facts-
Exactly like Honeypie said, WHY does it need an ultimatum for him to have trouble accepting your intolerance over this. She's a chick he's known for two weeks, she's pretty promiscuous, sexting with you (and how many others)/open marriage etc. and they have a "friendship" with huge SEXUAL UNDERTONES.
He has known you for a year, is close to you, supposed to care for you in an EXCLUSIVE relationship- for the sole reason that it is of a sexual nature, he should be prepared to drop her- no justification needed.
On top of that HE HAS ALREADY LIED TO YOU ABOUT KISSING/ SEXTING HER.
It would be different if they were just friends. But lets face it- they're not and he lied anyway. My bf has a female best friend- I would never tell him to drop her because he has NO sexual feelings for her.. I used my intuition and the evidence in front of me, before just taking his word for it
You may think you know him well, but you get to know him THAT well, when you become intimate and exclusive.
Your boyfriend may not be technically "going out" with her- but he sees her in a sexual way. That is all you need to know to run. I would be running as fast as I could. To second Honeypie "shady" is what your gut is telling you right? You should listen to it. I think you should keep himas your friend not your pet love rat lol
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female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (27 October 2017):
So in short, what HE wants to do is a higher priority than what might be "for the good of the relationship" basically. They aren't real friends. She was the backup plan. And apparently, he likes to keep her around no matter how it affects you.
While he is "aware" of your ultimatum, he is acting like a 5-year old who has been told to go put the candy back at the store. "I'll do it in a minute." He might feel that it SHOULD be his choice when and how it ends - and up to a point, I get that. He just wouldn't do it unless pushed, which in my book means he doesn't AGREE with your feelings.
Best thing to have this conversation in person, to be honest. That way nothing can be "misunderstood".
And yes, he said you were bullying him because he doesn't LIKE being told what to do and he doesn't want to put away that shiny toy. Again, this is him NOT taking responsibility.
While I do agree if she HAD been a real actual friend then meeting her would be great, but they aren't friends, that is just the term he has chosen to call her so she seemed less of a threat. Maybe this is why he was single in the first place? Because his boundaries are way more murky than yours? And murkier than the average GROWN woman?
As for her still contacting him, well... He (and you) can't control that aspect. The fact that HE doesn't nip in the bud only HE can control and choose to do.
I think it's actually very passive-aggressive of him. He is waiting until the VERY last moment to man up and talk to her. That is his "defiance" to being told what to do and perhaps his inability to understand WHY anyone (*hints* you) feel it's inappropriate to keep her around.
I would be curious how he would feel if YOU were the one stringing along another guy *just in case* while dating him.....
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 October 2017): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you once again for taking the time to reply to me and for your counsel.As yet, I am still away on business. We spoke today and it started out well. He asked when I was back. I said well, my love, that does depend on you. When you let me know you have deleted, blocked and ended your contact with this woman I will return (I am due technically to return in three days). He said he was well aware of what I had said and he would do it (has not done it yet but will do it). Unfortunately, my phone had a very bad connection which didn't help to the next bit. He said, once again, that he would let her know I was uncomfortable. I said that I would like him to understand that he needs to tell her from his voice that the relationship is inappropriate and not to use me as the reason these two can't be 'friends' anymore. (What is very annoying, is that even if he had told her I was uncomfortable, this hasn't stopped her from contacting him - extremely disrespectful).The phone line was bad. So, the text I received was basically that I was bullying him and that I was telling him what to think and do and that he is being blamed for something he hasn't done. (Hasn't done...hmmm...this will have to be tackled when/if we actually get back together). Interesting that he doesn't see the constant delaying of ending the 'friendship' as doing anything wrong. I replied that we both need to calm down (I was not angry at all - very calm) and that we both need to discuss this situation and listen to one another. I said the issue wasn't that we don't love each other but there are other issues that need to discussed and solved. You know what, as I am typing this, I am starting to bang my head on the table.He wrote yes, would we discuss it later. You know what, the real issue here...the real issue here is that he does not want to stop the contact with her. He may do it or pretend to do it (to please me)but the actual reality is that he doesn't want to. He met up with this woman a couple of weeks before we hooked up as bf/gf and he is just hedging his bets...if we didn't work out, she'd still be there. He wants to keep it on the back burner and the BS now is that...they are friends...so what's the problem. Yes...a miraculous transition from people kissing and texting into we are friends...(basically a tactic to downplay her significance and make me seem unreasonable, I suppose).Anyway, to be honest, I am wavering if I can be bothered right now...I am imagining the conversation we will have an I just want to go out and do something else. If I have to really explain this to someone...jeez! I am just hearing in my head - 'we're just friends. I met her before I hooked up with you. I'll do it in my own time. There's nothing going on...blah, blah, blah'Anyway, thank you. You replies are very helpful and insightful.
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female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (26 October 2017):
You ask:
"And now the impossible situation - if he says he has shut it down - do I believe it and what would now convince me. "
I would PUT that question to him. Ask him with all that it TOOK for him to cut the contact, how are YOU supposed to "just" believe him? Would HE believe you if the shoe was on the other foot and you had dragged it on and on...
I think you just have to be VERY open when having this conversation with him. YOU know him. You probably even know his "tells" for when he is lying. Or how he uses words or go into elaborate explanations when avoiding a topic or cooking up a story. so while having this conversation you PAY attention.
I would say TRY and give him the benefit of the doubt if you WANT to make it work. If the conversation turns out good for the both of you and you don't feel "hoodwinked" at the end of the conversation. I would tell him that you WANT to trust him and have decided to put your TRUST in him.
I think having these "bumps" in the road is actually good because it can start a conversation you might not otherwise have had. Like boundaries, standards, and expectations.
Giving him trust (which means you don't keep bringing it up and accept that he DID do what he said he was going to do - even if he didn't like it) I think is a good thing. It also put some of the responsibility ON his shoulders. the choice is HIS.
And if it down the line turns out that he lied, again THAT is on him. And you can then choose to go or stay with someone you know will lie to your face. The choice is yours.
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reader, anonymous, writes (25 October 2017): This is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThank you for so much for taking the time to respond to my question and with the consideration you gave it. I truly appreciate it.You raise a very serious point if I can actually trust him to use good judgement. You also raise a good point about this potentially being a parent and child relationship. Thank you.The buggy bit, the real buggy bit for me, is...as you put it...'hoping I would buy it' and 'spinning it out'. The intention, therefore, was to keep his relationship with her going. And now the impossible situation - if he says he has shut it down - do I believe it and what would now convince me. I am not prepared to become 'that' woman who obsesses is he/isn't he...has he shut it down/hasn't he? I will walk away and do something else. Life is too short.Lol...your line 'this is shady shit' did make me laugh. Once again, thank you for your reply.
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reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (25 October 2017):
I think he is playing dumb.
I think the REASON he is using the "friendship guise" is because he was hoping you would buy it. That is also why he dragged it out for so long in telling her what was up.
AND, why he chose to tell her that YOU had a problem with him being "friends" with her. Not him telling her, I don't think it's all that appropriate to continue talking to you as our conversations have gone into the "sexy text" realm and I'm now dating and living with someone.
Friends don't have "sexy texting" as part of the repertoire. That is not a friendship. That is a "let's play with fire" and see what happens.
Who she sleeps with should be NONE of his (and your) business if she is JUST a "friend". Her having an open relationship neither. Again I think the fact that he brought up her SEXLIFE with you was another "guise" of making whatever they had into a "semi-innocent" friendship. Like, "SEE she only sleeps with her BF even if she is in an open relationship...." Because WTF was the point in him telling you all this? If he wasn't just trying to downplay whatever he and she had going on? Or what he had WANTED to go on?
I think you are BOTH in an age group where you are "old enough" to know what's OK in a relationship and what's not, WITHOUT having to be told. If you had a SIMILAR "thing" with a male, would you have continued it after getting exclusive and moved in together with your BF? Or would you have said, OK - had my "fun" here but I don't feel this is appropriate?
I think SO often people don't like being told what to do. Regardless of age. We tend to BALK at being told that is not OK. I think THAT is human nature. It can be little things (like put your dirty clothes in the hamper) to if you are having INAPPROPRIATE texts with someone who isn't your partner. YET you need to have some consideration for BOTH people, not just do what YOU want to do.
The whole she is SO nice, I can't just tell her it's over and done with IS BS. It's him hoping that if he drags it out you might forget about it and he can continue to do WHATEVER he wants. HE got something OUT OF the "thing" they had to go and thus didn't want to let it go. It can almost be seen as a "passive-aggressive" way of telling you... "YOU are replaceable" and "I can do what I want".
Doesn't mean that was his intent.
I don't believe it's a BF/GF/Wife/Husband/Friend's job to tell their partner WHO they can befriend and hang out with - but I DO think we ALL have a "right" to voice our concern and be listened to.
Now, does your post come off a little possessive, controlling and insecure? Yes, and no.
I think you TRUSTED your gut-feeling about this chick and went with it. Judging what ended up coming out in conversations (kissing and sexy texts...) you were right. So in that sense, I think you SHOWED him your own standard of what is OK (for you) in a relationship and what is not. It took a LOT of prodding and asking for him to actually ACCEPT how you felt and what you stood for. You basically had to give him an ultimatum for him to even ACKNOWLEDGE that HIS actions were dodgy, to say the least.
And when I say it CAN look like you were a bit controlling and insecure - because that IS also part of the story. Who WOULD be absolutely secure with such a questionable story from his end? It wasn't like these two (him and her) were lifelong friends or had this deep bond... He had met her a little while before meeting you. And You have to question how they met and why... Was SHE trolling for a guy or a guy-friend... was he looking to date her when he then found out she was in a relationship and then... he met you...
So I DO think if you want to build on what you two have, there needs to be a VERY open conversation about boundaries, about trust.
I think you did the right thing is MEANING what you said and saying what you meant. There could be no mistaken your request. HE should have been DOING the same thing instead of "spinning" the story. From the "Oh she is so nice" to "You two would be best buddies, I just know it!" to " nothing is going on sexually" to " it's not a big deal just a kiss and sexy texts"...
Maybe ask him HOW he would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and YOU did what HE had been doing.
You have to decide if you CAN trust him to USE good judgment if you can respect him and he respects you. Or if this is going to be a parent & child relationship where you HAVE to pull out ultimatums for him to actually take you seriously.
And you BOTH have to learn to compromise and have honest conversations. No relationship is going to be smooth sailing 24/7/365.
So many things about this story make me go... "I dunno, this is shady shit."
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