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female
age
41-50,
*ConfusedChick
writes:I have posted to this forum a few times before and here I am again. I am back with my boyfriend and we are in couples therapy together (his idea ) to work on our communication issues and work towards our common goal of marriage ( he tells me that is what he wants). But he has some extreme fears about marriage and he is working with a therapist separately on those fears as he was married once before and it was a disaster that only lasted a year or so and has traumatized him, but he says that he is really trying to work though it. During our breakup last year I found out that he had purchased an engagement ring. His mom to,d me because she honestly thought he would never get married again until she found out that he bought this ring. That fact coupled with his sincerity over months got me into therapy with him.It's been 2 months of therapy and I'm frustrated because I feel like I'm all the way back into this relationship and I'm scared that he won't get past the things that are keeping us from moving forward with our life together. Our therapist says that if I feel so strongly I should set a timeline and stick with it. But how do I do that when I love him so much and don't want to be apart? And if I do, what is reasonable? We've been dating for nearly 3 years and last year was very difficult for us both but here we are. We just got back from a wonderful vacation and it was so wonderful to be with him every day...not joined at the hip or anything just eating together, sleeping together, waking up together everyday..even though during the day we did our own things sometimes. Now we are back and it's separate houses, work and therapy with time together at a premium. And I'm already missing him after one night alone. I don't know what to coat this point. I just turned 38 and as terrified as he is about marriage and not feeling like a failure again, I am terrified of never being married and not knowing what it's like to really share mylife with someone. So do I try to set this arbitrary timeline for a proposal or do I sit back and wait and see? I don't know what to do. Reply to this Question
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male
reader, Fatherly Advice + ♥, writes (5 April 2012):
 So after a re-reading and updating It occurs to me that I never answered the original question. This is the the point and pretty much everything else is decided.
What you (confused) want to know is what is a reasonable timeline for the journey from therapy to engagement. Factoring in a) 3 year existing relationship. b) his expressed willingness to be married, including enough excitement (or fear) to buy a ring. c)a lot of financial maneuvering to meld 2 households. d) your anxiety to get on with starting a family and having children.
While I'm the veteran of one engagement and marriage, I'm willing to express an opinion with the following disclaimer. There is no specified time that it takes to heal from an emotional wound. I know a man that failed to heal for 40+ years. in your case I believe that 2 more months should be sufficient, followed by a 1 year engagement.
If you have read me for a long time you may wonder that I would recommend that long of an engagement. That is mostly to resolve the house issues.
I personally think he is more ready than he thinks he is. He is dragging because he can. You are also showing resolve enough to stick to the deadline. You have already been to the breakup, That was already your statement to him that you will not wait. I know I posted differently at the beginning. I see better now. My only worry is his space issue. I think you can work around that. All he needs is a den / workshop / man cave.
That is my answer today. BTW I liked So very confused's latest answer. I agree very much that the signs point to incompatibility. My view only differs because you have already decided that you want to keep him. After 3 years you know. He bought a ring when he thought you were going to leave him. He got away with therapy up until now. He has already decided that he will marry you rather than lose you. Based on those two existing decisions, I think the deadline may work. If it doesn't then we know the truth of his commitment or the length of your patience.
Are you ready for that?
FA
A
female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (5 April 2012):
 Confused Chick, thank you so very much for the follow up…. I appreciate it when folks can see that my questions are designed to help them help me help them…. I GET totally what you are saying… and I happen to agree with you that Marriage comes BEFORE babies… and yes while you could do babies alone it’s much better to have a loving partner with you….
FOR ME personally, if I was with a partner that I felt as strongly about (i.e. I wanted to live with him and have a family with him) but after THREE YEARS he was not ready to progress to where I needed him to be I do not know that I would continue to tolerate his skittishness. Especially at your age with a biological clock that is getting ready to go off big time. I think that many folks know within 3 months if they would marry their partner. I always did. I also would say that after a YEAR they know for sure…. So that if by 3 years you are still at that stage where you have separate lives I am not sure that it will ever be what you want or need.
I agree that one night a weekend and 2-3 nights total during the week is NOT enough at this stage of the relationship relative to your stage in life.
My fiancé and I knew 6 months in that we would be moving in together and getting married even though he never believed in or wanted marriage…. And since we are not having kids marriage is not needed for us… I’ve BTDT and don’t care if we get married… but HE cares. He WANTS to get married for whatever security reasons he needs/wants and I love him enough to do do…. Again I don’t care if we marry or not I am as committed to him as if we had that piece of paper.
I can sense from your post that you don’t feel your man is that committed and I think you are correct. You don’t go to his place because he doesn’t like people there when he is not. Well YOU are NOT PEOPLE… you are his significant other… his partner… what will he do if you live together? This is so not a good sign… do you guys not have keys to each other’s place? To me the KEY CEREMONY (where you exchange keys to each others homes and cars) is critical to knowing where the relationship stands. I remember us doing it… We lived in different towns (2 hours apart) but having keys to each other’s homes was a big step in knowing that we were committed as a couple.
You are right in this case that actions speak louder than words and his words say “YES YES I want US” but his actions say “keep your emotional distance”. You have EVERY RIGHT to be confused and frustrated.
I am also not thrilled about selling my place as it’s been MINE for 22 years… and I am giving it up to buy a new place with a 30 year mortgage that I will probably die before it’s paid off… and I will have no equity and I will own it with him… so I get the whole not selling your place till you are sure he’s ready to commit for life… the only reason I’m willing to do so is that I know we are in this for the long haul…
Since he does not want you at his place and you are more comfortable at yours with him and your pets… can he rent his out and move in with you? Would that solve anything?
The issue is that he’s going to make all sorts of excuses for why he can’t do that… and yes renting is a pain… selling is a pain etc etc etc.. BUT when you are in a relationship that you want to progress those pains become manageable and bearable.
I’m thinking deep down inside you know he’s not going to be the partner you want or need and that the cold hard truth of probably having to end the relationship is glaring at you and that is painful.
Now the possibility exists that if push comes to shove he will step up and do and be what you want…. But you have to run the risk that he won’t…. and only you can decided when “partial commitment’ no longer outweighs being alone for a bit till you find someone else….
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reader, anonymous, writes (5 April 2012): It sounds to me like your boyfriend is comfortable with the relationship as it is now - being with you 2-3 times a week and maintaining separate residences - and he doesn't want it to change.I honestly think he does not want the relationship to get closer than this. Call it fear, call it being traumatized by his previous marriage, whatever. But that doesn't mean he wants to lose you either. He just wants things to be exactly the way they are. he wants you in his life, but only 2-3 days a week. I think he is only saying that he's interested in marriage in order to keep you around so you dont' leave altogether. maybe a similar example is when my kids were young and I cut back to part-time work so I could stay home more to take care of them yet not be completely out of the work force. The part-time gig was great for the first year, then the company underwent some organizational and economic changes and my boss presented me with two options: move up to full-time, or resign so they can replace me with a full time employee. The message being that the company needed someone full time, a part time worker would just not fit their needs cos it was neither here nor there. I could understand that. How did I feel? Well I obviously didn't want to lose my part time job because we did need the money. But at the same time I really didn't want or feel I could handle going full time just yet. So, when my boss asked me do I want to resign? My first response was NO! I don't want to resign, I want to keep my job. The boss said, OK then, go full time. So I reluctantly agreed to make a full-time commitment purely because I didn't want the alternative which was to completely lose my job. But after a few months I had to resign cos I just couldn't handle a full time commitment on top of taking care of 3 young children...(that was many years ago, now that my kids are older I'm back to full time work and it's fine now)That could be how your boyfriend is feeling about your relationship. He definitely wants you in his life, he doesn't want to lose you. BUT that doesn't mean he wants the relationship to go full time. Maybe he can handle it in small doses but not if it were to become more which is why he wants it to stay at this level. He may be saying he's interested in marriage, just because that's what he needs to say to keep you around so he doesn't lose his part time gig, while at the same time he will try to fight to keep it from going full time.I'm sorry if this isn't exactly advice. It's just my interpretation of what's going on, which maybe may help you in deciding what to do? like, maybe realizing that your boyfriend just does not want a full time relationship what are your options- to make peace with having a part time relationship with him forever, or nothing?
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reader, 1ConfusedChick +, writes (4 April 2012):
1ConfusedChick is verified as being by the original poster of the questionI want to be married because I would like a child and while I am fully aware that I don't need a husband or boyfriend to do that, it is something I believe in strongly. If we decided together not to have kids, I don't know that marriage really matters as much to me. It's the commitment and the time we spend together. Right now he spends 1 night on the weekend and we see each other 2-3 times during the week/ weekend. After 3 years this is not enough for me. And before anyone asks, I don't go to his place because he doesn't like people there when he is not. It's not about me iot that he's hiding anything it's just how he is with his space. So most of the time he comes to my because my dogs are there and I'm way more relaxed about him being there when I'm not there yet as long as he lets me know first. So he is with me as much as id like and it makes me doubt his real commitment even though his words tell me that he is fully committed and does want to be married eventually. As for us selling our places and buying a place together. My home is part of my sense of security and stability. I don't think that selling is a good idea when I don't feel like I'm getting the commitment actions I'm looking for. I love him but I'm financially successful and stable on my own. I'm not giving that up without something that appears as stable or better. I know there are no guarentees, but why would I leave stability for instability?
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reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (4 April 2012):
FA,
I am not one to diss marriage... and I totally believe in it but to be honest I'm heading towards my FOURTH marriage...so I'm not sure a piece of paper really makes that much difference if the people are totally committed in the first place.
Yes if the person is skittish and not wanting to commit then I can see why the piece of paper is so important to the other partner.... but it does NOT promise happily ever after or even security.
The OP wants marriage as a means to an end... isn't the goal for most folks to "live happily ever after?"
and gay marriage is not about the paper.. it's about the equality.
If I was gay and living with my life partner I could put HER on my health insurance without marriage ONLY because gay marriage is not legal in all states (as it should be)
BUT because I'm heterosexual we HAVE to get married for health insurance. We could also bypass getting married with about 10,000 dollars worth of legal fees to set him up with the same protection legally that a spouse gets with that silly litle piece of paper.
Society says being married is the be all to end all and that should be the goal...
meet
mate
marry
Noah's Ark syndrome.
I want the OP to THINK hard about what REALLY is most important in her relationship... is it about the marriage or is it about being committed to this man and a relationship with him.
If it's about the commitment but she does not feel it from him and needs that piece of paper... what about that piece of paper (that can be easily undone with a second piece of paper) is so magical that she's willing to end a long term relationship over?
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male
reader, Fatherly Advice + ♥, writes (4 April 2012):
Dear Confused,
Everyone is telling you that marriage won't make a difference, when you are telling us that to you it does. I think your guy is getting that. I believe he understands. I believe that he is afraid of his ability. I don't know how long you should wait. I know that you will be happiest if you do what you believe is right and not settle for half of what you want. Short of writing up prenuptial agreements you have done everything you can to reassure him. at least financially. Just keep letting him know that you believe in him. Soon he will believe in himself.
As for the idea that a marriage certificate doesn't make a difference. I find it interesting that while heterosexual couples are abandoning the idea, homosexual couples are fighting for it. There are certainly reasons to want it.
FA
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female
reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (4 April 2012):
How long do you wait OP? YOU wait as long as you can…. As long as you want to.
How about if you both sell your places and buy a new place together?
My father and his long term girlfriend own a home together.. live as husband and wife…. But he will not marry her as he told my mother on her death bed that he would live with someone but never marry again (she was BEGGING him to REMARRY and not be alone) they are as committed as if they had a piece of paper…. My fiancé and I are the same… we live in a home I currently own but are selling to buy a place together…. We are getting married because he can not have my health insurance if we are not married… but we are as committed without the marriage as with.
What difference does the piece of paper make for you?
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female
reader, anonymous, writes (4 April 2012): I don't really understand what is he doing now that is NOT committed enough? He's not looking to date anyone else is he? He says he wants to be with you for the rest of his life, right? How is he not "being" with you now? how is he not living up to his words, right at this very moment?You can't change another person's way of thinking, you just can't. You may not be able to change your own thinking either, but you at least have a much better shot at it than trying to change someone else's. So why not focus your energy on trying to be happy with the relationship as it is and live for the present and what you do have rather than for the future. Release yourself from the expectations that what you have now isn't "enough" and that marriage will somehow make it "enough."If you really want him, then you will just have to wait for him however long it takes. After all that is what commitment is! Whether you slap a marriage certificate on a relationship or not doesn't define whether there is mutual commitment or not. Actions and behaviors and personal choices do. If you are committed to him, then you will adjust your expectations and sacrifice your dreams for him. that's what a commitment means. When people are married and they say marriage is hard work because it is commitment and compromise. Spouses are expected to sacrifice their personal dreams for each other - like give up careers or other goals and desires for the sake of maintaining the marital relationship with their partner.So if you consider yourself to be committed to him, then you too will sacrifice or give up some of your dreams (maybe such as putting a marriage certificate on the relationship) to maintain your current relationship with him.I'm not saying you have to do this, it's always up to you. You always have the choice to continue a relationship or end it (even if it's a marriage). but I'm just saying that since you are focused on wanting him to do certain things, why not you demonstrate your commitment to him by waiting for him as long as he takes. Does this open you up to the risk that he could still leave you one day you will feel like your years of commitment to him went down the drain? Of course it does. But this is still the case even if you got married today because he could still one day decide to leave you and render your years of commitment to the marriage gone down the drain. I think your therapist is right that you should set a timeline. But it's not for him to decide to get married or not - it's for you to decide if you will accept him as he is or not!
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reader, chocoholicforever +, writes (4 April 2012):
I think you should only set a timeline if you are fully prepared to end the relationship and walk away for good if the timeline expires without your terms and conditions met. otherwise, what's the use of setting a timeline? why would it have any power whatsoever?
if you've invested a lot of your time and energy and emotions into your relationship and you feel that you are so close but not quite there, and you desperately want it to get to the next stage, it can be very hard to end the relationship and mean it. (And ending the relationship without really meaning it, just prolongs the situation.) Therefore, are you really ready to set a timeline knowing that walking away is what you must do IF the timeline expires?
If you can honestly see yourself walking away because you've just "had it up to here" then by all means do set a timeline as you'll have nothing to lose and the outcome will be a step forward no matter which way it goes. But if you're not ready to give him up even if marriage doesn't seem to be on the cards, then you should find an alternative strategy to cope. I would say better to try and adapt your attitude to marriage or what it represents to you, to better match where he is at, so you can continue to stay with him but without being as torn up inside over the marriage issue.
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reader, 1ConfusedChick +, writes (4 April 2012):
1ConfusedChick is verified as being by the original poster of the questionFA: So what do I do? How long do I wait while he works this out? He says he loves me very much and wants to be together, yet he can not do what he basically begged me to do and that was take a huge risk and leap of faith. I did it. I came back because I loved him more than I was afraid of us failing. I don't understand after 3 years why he can't do the same if he loves me as much as he says. I have my own money and I do not need half of anything that is his. I've already agreed to sharing living expenses but having separate discretionary accounts. He had to basically payoff his ex-wife to make things go quickly, and so he knows that in no way am I after any money he may have. I am as stable and faithful as they come. My parents have been married 40 years and they have fought through the worst of things. These are my role-models for marriage, so I fight to keep what I want. So he knows that I would never be unfaithful or just pick up and leave when things get tough. I don't know whatelse he needs to see/know to know that until he takes this risk, he won't know for sure if it was worth it.
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reader, anonymous, writes (4 April 2012): Let go of any ideas or notions that getting married somehow will improve the relationship. The way I see it, the only thing that marriage changes in a relationship is that should you ever decide to leave your partner in the future there will be legal and financial consequences and social stigma. I do not see any benefits that turning an already great and wonderful committed relationship into marriage will bring. (Other than you now get to share health insurance and automatically inherit his stuff if he does an untimely death. )
In other words I think I can sorta see that maybe his fear of marriage is that putting this label on the relationship will not add any positive changes to the relationship - since your relationship is already great as it is - the only difference it will make is a negative one.
when people say that marriage makes the relationship more secure or committed, it is because of those legal and financial and societal penalties for trying to leave your spouse. But really, do you EVER want to be with someone who is only staying with you because of the fear of retribution from the legal system (and from society) for leaving you? A person who stays with their spouse because of those reasons isn't truly 'committed' in heart, they are trapped. I guess there are quite a few many people who do feel more secure thinking their spouse is trapped with them. But I never saw it that way.
in other words - practically everything that you would do as a married couple you can still do now without the label of marriage. You can live together, own property together, have and raise children and create a family together, go on family vacations together, grow old together. And you know that you are staying with each other because you both continually want to since no one is forcing either of you to. People who "need" the marriage label to have peace of mind that their spouse will never leave them and they will never end up alone again, are approaching it wrong, I think.
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reader, Fatherly Advice + ♥, writes (3 April 2012):
I like your followup a lot more than your original message you seem to have your head on straight. Yes selling your home would not be a good idea. Yes working out things is part of being married.
The problem is that you are dealing with a child of the current generation where only 40% of adult Americans are married. Many men feel that getting married is just a way to lose half of their stuff in the divorce. He is just now starting to think of you as a permanent part of his life. This is a new thought that he has never thought of as possible. It may take a very long time.
FA
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reader, 1ConfusedChick +, writes (3 April 2012):
1ConfusedChick is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIt's not that I need to be married right this minute but we both own our own homes and honestly without that kind of commitment I can't see selling my house and giving up that stability for someone that when we met said he did see himself getting married again. I want to be with him full time but his actions and his words just seem off. He worked really hard to get me back and I took a huge risk coming back... I am sure most women would not have made the choice I did. But I believe him when he says I'm the one for him and that he wants his future to be with me. What I don't understand is why work so hard to get me back and then ask me to wait indefinitely? He knew that us getting back together meant working towards marriage. But I don't understand what he's waiting for now. Won't we always have things to work on and figure out? Isn't that part of the deal with marriage?
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reader, So_Very_Confused +, writes (3 April 2012):
If you need more after 3 years and he’s trying you have to figure out how long you are willing to wait.
Do you need the MARRIAGE or do you just need/want to be with him full time? I get the whole missing your man when you are not together
We were LDR and we hated it… we finally had every weekend together until we moved in together. We are engaged (and he is a man who when we met 18 months ago swore he would NEVER get married) but now we are together every day and every night and it’s great so I feel your pain.
WHY is the MARRIAGE the important part to you? Would you want to just live with him? Is he up for that? If not perhaps you need to consider how long you are willing to wait….. and then you can tell him… HONEY I need you to commit to a marriage and I will wait as long as I can but I am not sure how long that is… but know that if you can’t manage a commitment that I need I will have to leave…
Then you HAVE to go when you say you will go so choose your time carefully.
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reader, Fatherly Advice + ♥, writes (3 April 2012):
Don't declare an ultimatum that you are unable to enforce. In other words if you tell him that if you are not engaged by June 1st, you will start dating other men, then you had better be prepared to start dating other men. If in fact you are not going to date other men. Then you should not not declare a time table.
In all fairness you have determined to invest a great deal of emotion and time into this man, knowing all along that he may never be able to overcome his phobia. That may have been an unwise decision on your part. You are learning the hard lesson that we can not change other people, by pushing or hoping, or wishing, or even by loving them enough. They have to change themselves, because they want to.
In my experience pushing, or setting deadlines does not work. I also see that people who are extremely anxious to be married, often accept less in potential partners than they should. For example getting emotionally attached to a person who is unable to fulfill their needs for security. Disaster looms in their future.
In other words I disagree with your therapist. Setting a deadline will only help you to prepare for a breakup. Good for you, not good for the relationship.
FA
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