A
male
age
41-50,
WizardOfWaz
writes:Debates surrounding porn often generate more heat than light and any areas of genuine concern can get blurred when people let their emotions cloud their reason. Porn has always been with us under various guises ever since the cavemen ogled drawings of women on their walls.It is a popular myth that porn is a pursuit dominated by men, the truth is many women view the same type of porn that men enjoy, but if you push the boundaries of what defines porn into text then you have a plethora of popular yet extremely pornographic publications marketed almost exclusively to women such as, Cosmopolitan, Vogue, Hello!, Bella, Woman’s Weekly etc etc ad infinitum.Where men are turned on by visuals women tend to be more aroused by what they hear or read. So your Mills and Boon “Adult” section is just as (-or even more so, try reading this stuff) pornographic as Playboy ditto the novels of Jilly Cooper, Jackie Collins, Mollie Parkins et al which are all marketed for women. We have no problem with our women indulging in the realms of their fantasy so what’s the big deal about men doing likewise? One possible explanation is that some women feel threatened by their men ogling porn and this could be a result of not understanding the difference between the sexes when it comes to fantasy. Remember girls guys are turned on by visuals, maybe because that sweet little flower is so hidden, maybe because he is curious, or maybe just because it is a basic instinct. But it is not because he doesn’t fancy you, unless you think your ogling of the latest nookie shenanigans in your favourite soap opera/magazines/novels or even reading the latest exploits of some “Stars” getting their end away in our tabloids (written for women), makes you love your guy any the less?Is it just me or am I smelling the distinct aroma of double standards here?
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You can add your comments or thoughts to this article A
reader, anonymous, writes (3 May 2008): It all depends on the individual. Some people are prone to addiction and fantasy. Other people can approach things in a healthy way. Porn is not something that should be overused/misused/ or used if it is hurting there "one and only". Maybe ur in a relationship that is self-centered or open and ur both okay with having secrets or separate lives... other couples like to be very close and porn may come between such a couple. It really depends. I certainly would not say that porn is a "male" thing. I actually find mens bodies very sexy and enjoy watchin porn. But I do think that it is, at this present time, geared towards men- thus men watch it more. I think that inthe future- women will begin to watch more openly and more men will have "porn" issues.
A
female
reader, Susan Strict +, writes (28 April 2008):
 This is a great thread - so many diverse views.
Personally I can't really see the problem with what most people are calling "pornography", depending, of course, on just what is being depicted. The argument that it leads to sex offences and marriage break-up just doesn't stand up, because it's a very, very small percentage of people who will be affected in that way. It's like saying we should completely ban alcohol because a few people will become alcoholics, and in fact alcohol leads to far more marriage break-ups, violence and crime than pornography ever has or ever will. Are we going to ban everything that has the slightest risk that a small percentage of people will have problems with it or abuse it? So there go motorcycles (and yes, as a very few of you know, I have a particular reason for hating motorcycles), cars, nuts and every food that might cause an allergy, all religions (we can't risk dangerous fanatics, can we?), all contact sports (we might start enjoying the violence), every book or film that includes anything violent, and half a million other things.
Look, rather, at what we call "pornography". The depiction and glorification of sexuality should never, to my mind, be considered something to be ashamed of. I prefer the term "erotica", and as such it can be something to be enjoyed and savoured by both men and women.
So is there "bad" pornography and "good" pornography? Some people would say that if it has anything to do with sex then it is all bad. I disagree. It is pornography, bad pornography, if it depicts sex as something dirty, demeaning, exploitative, or damaging to the participants. It is erotica, good pornography, if it is a "mutually pleasurable expression of sexuality between people who choose to express it" - not my words; they come, slightly paraphrased, from Gloria Steinem, an ardent feminist and anti-pornography campaigner. She also said, "Erotica is as different from pornography as love is from rape, as dignity is from humiliation, as partnership is from slavery." I think that sums it up nicely.
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reader, anonymous, writes (28 April 2008): I am a female who thinks soaps, gossip magazines, romance novels etc. are trash, I would never waste my time or money with them, and certainly cannot imagine being aroused by them. I feel the same way about porn, and do not believe you can really compare the two. I don't know too many women that actually masturbate and get an orgasm from any of those mediums. Orgasms release chemicals that are obviously biologically and psychologically altering. How can you compare the two when one usually produces that affect when the other doesn't?I could go on and on about what I think of porn, but it would all be beside the point. What's right for me isn't right for everybody. If two people do not see eye to eye on the subject then they probably shouldn't be together anyway. People should not have to compromise their morals and beliefs.
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reader, PreciousNY  + ♥, writes (28 April 2008):
I agree with rorowes 100%. Also how can you compare soaps to pornography? Soaps do not show naked men and women degrading one another and portraying sex in a tasteless and unrealistic fashion. Pornography is probably one of main causes of broken relationships...is it worth it? It's not like there is just a handful of women out there who feel this way, it is a vast majority of women. Unfortunately most men do NOT realize the difference between porn and reality. When women watch it, most likely she will fantasize about her partner, where as men will fantasize about the trashy women on their computer screen. When a man chooses a woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with, it is (or should be) because she fulfills his every need and fantasy, so why the NEED for porn? If the woman is ok with it, then that's a different story. Porn is ok in a relationship if both are in agreement with it. But if the woman or man(unlikely) feels bad, disrespected and bothered it, he should respect her and her feelings and stop. A man/woman enjoys it, does NOT need it.
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reader, WizardOfWaz + ♥, writes (28 April 2008):
WizardOfWaz is verified as being by the original poster of the question
I see your point rorowes. But do you really think that men are really that daft that they cant distuinguish between fantasy and reality? Most men view porn of some sort until they get to the stage where it becomes pretty much of a muchness. If women can't accept it then men will conceal it to spare her feelings, but that concealment causes even more outrage it's a vicious circle.
It is all good and well you and your man can view it together, I too grew out of solo porn habit decades ago but I don't believe in imposing personal habits on others like we were some sort of moral police.
So its enjoyable viewing porn as a mutual hobby with some one, but that doesnt give us moral authority to act as judge, jury, and executioner to the many guys who enjoy watching porn and condemn them for concealing it from women who will not tolerate it.
As for the false images that porn portrays of women, this industry has a massive growing market for "amatuer" porn, that is for women lookin like women not plastic barbie dolls. It is all amatuer acting anyway and viewers are well aware of it.
Far more damageing is the fashoin industry which still gives your Real Women a wide berth and generally avoids using them as models like they were lepers. The consequences for real women are stress and lack of self-esteem demonstrating clear evidence of the kind of collateral damage that women do to women in the world of fashion fantasy.
Have a look at my article of last month to see exactly where I'm coming from here:
www.dearcupid.org/question/genetically-modified-woman-or-organic-female-which-do.html
Regards
Waz
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reader, rorowes +, writes (26 April 2008):
 I've watched porn in the past with my man, and it is stimulating at the time....I would never watch anything that has violence in it.....What about the vids that show women masturbating, or caressing the man in the vid? You can't tell me that when a man watches that, they don't go into a fantasy that doesn't include their woman......Watching porn by urself doesn't make your sex life stronger, it hurts.....especially if you sneak and do it when you are told that you're hurting the woman you claim to love.
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 April 2008): ps. There is factual evidence that sex offenders are porn addicts! Look it up! A fact! Anther fact- men are 9x more likely to commit a sexual offense then any women. Thus- men involved with porn aren't always so "healthy". Sorry!
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reader, anonymous, writes (26 April 2008): Wizard no offense- I don't disagree with many of your statements- what I have a problem with is how your article and comments continue to discount any other point of view.
It sounds very rigid and dogmatic. I'm just trying to say
that there are other reasons why some men like porn aside from a "quick wank", maybe not you or your best buddy, but some men! Even if the majority of men looked at it for that reason alone- still- there are good & valid reasons why women might be offended by porn. As a man- I think if it were the women who were always roughing up the "young" boys in the videos- then I would have a problem with it too. Its not always as simple as you seem to claim- Men like visuals- women like romantic love stories- personally
my wife is not that way. She digs some porn and doesn't get "emotionally" attached to the actors on the screen, so "science" is wrong again- nothing new there. To discount a womens feelings based on HER experience is very ignorant. In the mean time just continue to worry about yourself and to wank off to the hooker in the video- hurry up though before
she's dead of an overdose or her pimp beats her to a pulp!She might not be as attractive then!
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reader, WizardOfWaz + ♥, writes (25 April 2008):
WizardOfWaz is verified as being by the original poster of the questionIt might be a bit more helpful if viper & co responded to the comments actually made rather than re-inventing them for the purpose of criticism.
To recap, men are attracted by visuals and women by verbals. This is not wizard waffle but the view of conventional social science. Those who disagree are welcome to submit a thesis on the subject and no doubt a Nobel Prize awaits the first to prove previous research on the subject wrong.
Whether porn actually causes harm or not, the jury is still out on that one. Perhaps because "evidence" taken from sex offenders who claim porn motivated their crimes is not reliable. But there is also the point that men do not emotionally connect with porn in the same way as women do when they are pursuing their own escapism.
Women can emotionaly project themselves into a detailed fantasy of the knight in shining armour seducing the virgin maiden by candlelight on a bearskin rug in front of a roaring log fire while celestial cherubs pluck their harps.
Men just ogle fanny's and have a quick wank. End of story.
Regards
Waz
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reader, anonymous, writes (25 April 2008): I think Wizard sounds a bit angry- perhps you had a very controlling mother or a bad relationship or two??? Not sure. But to act as though hard core porn is comparable to reading up on the latest celebs seems like your reaching into outer space! I agree that women enjoy their own variation of rubbish- as men enjoy their's- but everywhere you turned there as a half-ass naked barely 18 year old boy
and women goggling him- you might get pissed too! ake notice to how often you see young women reveared for showng skin on magazine covers, billboards, news media, nwspapers, TV reality shows, and just walking down the street! Now- men are reveared for their minds- not showing our physical selves! How may female versions of Woody Allen do you know that gets a strapping young boy at her side???
That's the double standard! Pretty women use men just the same as we use them for our egos!
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reader, Clarey +, writes (25 April 2008):
 PS - Just looked at the guidelines and I can't post the articles. Will see if I can get references to the dates etc in case you are interested.
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reader, Clarey +, writes (25 April 2008):
I never used to feel so alarmed about this whole thing but it has taken a new turn. I remember finding porn videos ( in the 1990s) that belonged to my husband and I put a couple on. One was boring, it was an oriental girl pretending to lick another one's p----y and and although she was trying to look hot she actually looked as though the girl smelled bad. I thought "Yuk" and left to make the dinner. Nothing more.
Now though sexualising women is more main stream, it is at the back of the Friday Ad (our local free family selling sheds and unwanted barbies kind of paper). You get offers of pictures of girl's pussies by text, you can't watch a History program without it being about sex. You never see the stiffy. Last night there was an offering of advice about spanking on mainstream tv. Even Marks and Spencers would like you to think their puddings are orgasms (that ridiculous woman reading the words out makes me want to slap her face.
There have been some magnificent and illuminating articles in The Guardian over recent times and I may well post them in this section, or links to them. One was by a lap dancer (I think 19 March this year). It literally blows out the myth that lapdancing clubs are innocent fun.....the girls there get attacked and abused whilst being ogled and the one who wrote the article had her impression of men very altered. (She now says that if she dated a man who went to one she would class it as infidelity and dump him). The other is all about porn and it is amazing.
I know what Wizard of Waz means about privacy and I see his point, but this stuff truly threatens relationships now. I wish it was like the old days when at least a boy or guy had to use some inventiveness to get their stash. Now it is like water on tap. Make fags available in public places and people will smoke. Make gambling legal and more people wil get into debt. Fast food causes fatties. It is not all about having free choice, if it were nobody would bother advertising. It is known that people can be manipulated. You know that really too.
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reader, WizardOfWaz + ♥, writes (25 April 2008):
WizardOfWaz is verified as being by the original poster of the questionTo those who want to beast men for being men my answer to such feminist control freaks and their no-balls poodles who call themselves "men" is simple, if she doesn't like you ogling your own choice of fantasy, do it in private.
If she then forces an "investigation" into your privacy then ditch the bullying bitch. Your private escapist thoughts are your own just as much as hers are.
You cannot condemenm a man's choice of fantasy without putting forward an equal arguement opposed to women's porn. That would be real "equality" in any reasonable persons book.
Like most mature and reasonable guys here I get sick to the back teeth with attention-seeking no-lifes getting obsessed with the idea that all men are bunch of rapist bastards just because our silly fantasy's don't agree with your obsessive sexist stereotype of anything that is incompatible with the feminist facists idealogy of mens porn being "degrading to women".
What is so "degrading" about female nudity that we all have to avert our eyes in disgust?
Shouldn't we be turning our real moral eyes away from females porn preferences that infests our newspapers to the extent that news about the most horrific personal tragedies often get relegated in favour of the more labia-wetting "stories" such as who is fucking who in the world of "entertainment"?
It's my round. What would you like? A double standard?
Regards
Waz
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reader, rorowes +, writes (25 April 2008):
Hello all, I don't look at soaps, read trashy novels, or vogue, cosmo, or any of those mags. I think the real problem here, is that most men and women do this in hiding, and that is what destroys relationships, not looking at it. If there is nothing wrong with it, then you should be able to share it with your partner, not behind closed doors in another room of the house, way far away form your partners ears and eyes. The other thing to think about, is if it hurts the one you claim to love, then it's not good.
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reader, anonymous, writes (25 April 2008): I don't really disagree w/anything anyone has written. But I do think that as a male who watches porn from time to time, that porn is mostly degrading to women. It's not just about getting visual stimuli from beautiful women- if it were only that- there may not be any debates-not like this!
One has to scroll thru pages and pages of pretty hard-core/taboo material to just find the "playboy" version of what I prefer. I also think that women might actually enjoy porn more often if it wasn't geared for male viewers. I think more and more women, today, are coming out and saying that they DO like to watch porn. So- I don't agree that males prefer visual stimuli- but that as a male- I've had 1,000's of years in a male dominated world. Women, on the other hand, are still feeling out the new, almost equal society. Who knows what will be in 20 years!
So, I don't like to place genereliztions on male verses female- there has been too many changes over the centuries to really hold any water!
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reader, Danielepew  + ♥, writes (25 April 2008):
 Wizard, I can't agree more. When you say it's somethin else that "makes you" do it, then you're saying "I'm innocent". I can't agree more, like I said.
And you were smart with that line about "The Director's Cut".
May the Foreskin Be With You,
Danielepew Solo
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reader, Ask oldersister +, writes (24 April 2008):
 I think the wizard may have just been speaking in generalities, not specifically addressing masochistic or exploitive porn. There are double standards here when we don't consider the differences in what arouses each sex. For women, we tend to find arousal in opposite sex emotional relationships (chatting online, emotional connections with men at work, etc...) which could be equally if not more damaging to our primary relationships, even in moderation. Men are more visual and if they are only viewing mild porn in moderation, this should not present any problems.
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reader, anonymous, writes (24 April 2008): Hello all! I read this article and all the comments! It seems we have alot of varying opinions- I don't think anyone is all right or wrong here! Personally, I agree with Yenell that, overall,the porn industry is male dominated and basically degrading to women. Wizard seems to have much confidence in the human race - but we are talking about the "Porn" industry here.. many people actually involved in this industry are pretty dysfunctional people.Whether they are addicted to sex or drugs-many of them don't seem, to me, to be healthy people. That's my opinion. I think Yenell was talking about sexual abuse as a child- which means that she was a victim and I don't think what you said, Wizard, was very understanding of that reality. You sound somewhat ignorant to me. I personally feel that healthy people can make a distinction between reality and fantasy- but many younger, undeveloped teens/young adultsthat don't have supervision may be confused by pornography- and the truth is- just like guns- use it to kill!
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reader, WizardOfWaz + ♥, writes (24 April 2008):
WizardOfWaz is verified as being by the original poster of the questionDaneilepew-When we hear the rapists excuses such as "I was molested as a kid", "I was drunk" or "It is my porn addiction", for me that just translstes into having no remorse whatsoever for their crimes and makes them more dangerous than the criminal who can actually admits that is he who has the problem.
As for for the circumcised guys, they can view the "Directors Cut" version. :-)
Regards
Waz
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reader, Danielepew + ♥, writes (24 April 2008):
I have to confess I didn't really understand the thread of the discussion with yenell, but I have to say that I'm with you, Wizard, in holding people responsible for what they do. I never believe in "that made me do it".
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reader, WizardOfWaz + ♥, writes (24 April 2008):
WizardOfWaz is verified as being by the original poster of the questionYou are making a lot of prejudiced assumptions there vennel. Personally I don't believe men or women are as mentally retarded as you make them out to be. Most people know the difference between fact and fiction, and can seperate their daily lives from what they have seen in films or books perfectly well. This applies equally to mainstream entertainment and media as well as porn.
And of course those who commit sex crimes invariably blame porn, drink, upbringing or anything else except themselves. I come from a more radical stance where you are responsible for your own behaviour and I have little time for criminals excuses and those who parrot them as if it were the gospel truth.
For me blaming porn just shows that the criminal is showing no remorse for his crimes, and sentencing for crimes should take account of that and any other lies/excuses the criminal spouts.
As for your claim women are some sort of subdued slaves to men because of porn, I have to say I've never met a woman like that in my life and I've been round the block a few times. Perhaps it's because I don't go fishing for dates at the local mental hospital that I credit the vast majority of ladies of all ages and backgrounds with the basic common sense that can seperate fantasy from reality.
Sure there are bitches around just as there are male bullies who commit sex crimes. We also have prisons for them which in my book is preferable to making excuses for them or trying to tar all men and women with the same criminal brush just because they happen to view porn.
Regards
Waz
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reader, Danielepew + ♥, writes (24 April 2008):
Wizard, just a joke, to let some steam out: In view of the title of your article, what can circumcised men expect?
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reader, WizardOfWaz + ♥, writes (23 April 2008):
WizardOfWaz is verified as being by the original poster of the question
Thanks for that link Tish. I think your comments on the subject are so close to mine that the only difference is my occassional grumpiness (versus your cool reasoning) in expressing the same thoughts.
It's a guy thing.
Regards
Waz
For those who missed it, Tishas link;
www.dearcupid.org/question/today-i-came-across-lots-porn-in-his.html
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reader, yenell +, writes (23 April 2008):
I'm open for debate! I think that ur point is valid but also scant. Porn- and -mens reasoning -isn't always that simple. In fact the porn industry and it's viewers are complex human beings and although YOUR motivation for viewing porn and your friends may be just as you say, that can't doesn't for the race of "man".I am a fmale who finds porn very arousing. The things I enjoy watching- such as a women (or two) dominating and seducing a man
is not abundant in porn. Usually it's men dominating the two women; shoving &^% in her mouth- railing her ^&%^$$- gang banging her- and many times she is barely a woman but rather a child in a "almost" womans body.If there was more porn geared for women- and I don't mean the stereotypicl type that men think their women want. Women want men who are not only strong- but who are dominated by them. We act like you are the kings because thats what YOU want! Women are not that different then men- lthough when I watch porn- I tend to think of doing thee things to my husband and thats th turn on for me. So- even in watching other pople- I am still true to my husband. I don't desire the man w/ the huge %^&&*- rather I desire the position w my husband.
The issues I have with porn is that men seem to degrade the women in the picture and thats he abundance of the industry. These women are of low self esteem and tend to think thats thats all their valued for. Young teens begin to think that his is how men values them. When I was a teen-I was very developed and a knockout! I had older men starring at me- I was sexally abused by older men- these men LOVED porn. They wanted to use me for their own pleasure. Very selfish! Very sick! This is hw the society is telling mn it's okay to look at young, barely 18 women and think of sex. Thats not a healthy society. I know you said that back in the "caves" men still did these things!!??? Well- we also had slaves! Does this mak it okay or are we tryng to becom more civil? How would you feel if the porn industry was dominated by women who &*^%$# barely 18 yr old boys? Would you still watch it? And would that then mean that you don't like te idea of waching men and women engage in sex? I could g on but these re just 10% of some of what Ithink your article wasn't covering!
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reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (23 April 2008):
 Okay I blame Bill Gates and Brad Pitt.
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reader, WizardOfWaz + ♥, writes (23 April 2008):
WizardOfWaz is verified as being by the original poster of the questionThe article was not about obsessions with porn Annalisa, the point was about the differences between the sexes and what they prefer in the field of adult entertainment. Men prefer looking at pics women prefer reading the text.
You condemn men for their preferences, but if a man dare tell a woman to switch of that soap opera (womens porn)or he asks do not buy porno womens fiction I would guess that you would would be the first to scream "control freak!".
And lest we forget the tabloid "newspapers" written to appeal to women and therefore we get 7 collumn inches dedicated to the killing of a dozen Iraqi school children, meanwhile whatever pussy Brad Pitt is sticking his 7 inches up gets four pages.
How this typical example of womens porn morally equates with some guys natural instinct to ogle at tits and fannys escapes me. But I'm sure there are some feminist ball choppers still around that will try desperately to convince us that mens fantasys are morally inferior to womens.
Regards
Waz
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reader, Tisha-1 + ♥, writes (23 April 2008):
 Hi, Waz, thanks for the thought-provoking article. I tend to agree that we do have a bit of a double standard regarding acceptable fantasies. What I worry about with porn is that someone with little experience uses it as a teaching tool and thinks that real life sex is going to be just like what's on the screen. That being said, here's what I said about it a while back.http://www.dearcupid.org/question/today-i-came-across-lots-porn-in-his.html
Thanks again, and keep up the good work!
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reader, eyeswideopen +, writes (23 April 2008):
Personally I blame Bill Gates.
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reader, Annalisa +, writes (23 April 2008):
 You're offering food for thought, of course, but I think most people who complain about their partner watching or reading porn, do so because their relationship is affected by it. Leaving morality aside, it might be acceptable for people to seek sexual pleasure through pornography when they're alone. Things go wrong when a man/woman is left unfulfilled because of their partner's obsession with porn!
Personally, I think women's magazines and adult books are rubbish and mentally numbing. I've also known few men who openly watched or read porn, let alone allowing me to feel threatened by it! I don't understand when people would find the time, though: if a couple spend the day working, they only see each other for a few hours, they must want to be together... Why go watch some porn when you can have the real thing with someone you love?!
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