A
female
age
41-50,
anonymous
writes:**Please mods, I think I ask a lot of important questions here and while I do mention date-rape, I put it in the cleanest way possible. Is there a way to share my experience and questions without it getting deleted? **There are a lot of posts lately on women who don't want sex or who aren't ready or who aren't sure if they were raped. In one situation, the OP was chastised by nearly everyone for putting herself in bad situations or for being flirtatious or provocative when she had no interest in sex. Another women just seemed to want to date and was super-turned-off by sexual activity in general and was told she probably wouldn't GET to date then. Our society is largely sexual.The point of my question is this: HOW does a woman (male and female answers please) avoid date rape, the most common kind? There are a LOT of pieces of advice on how to avoid it with strangers, but no one says what to do if it's your boyfriend or that guy you've known (and hung out with) for over a decade.They say, "don't go out alone after dark, don't wear your hair in a pony tail, don't wear too loose clothing (easy to grab), pay attention to your surroundings, don't sit in your car by yourself in a parking lot, don't drink too much, don't dress provocatively, go home with the girls you came with, use the buddy system, don't flirt too much, carry pepper spray ... " Most of that is basic safety for ANYONE (a large male is more likely to be assaulted walking a lone at night) but it's still victim-blaming. They want to know why (she usually) was doing (any of the above) in the first place.What they don't say is how to avoid DATE RAPE or acquaintance rape. Short of never flirting with anyone, not showing affection, dressing like a Bible School Teacher, not talking about sex, not drinking at all, not going anywhere alone with someone you've known for a long time (and SHOULD trust) ... she's still to blame. why SHOULDN'T she be able to go talk to a guy she knows somewhere where music isn't blaring? Why SHOULDN'T she think that they were hanging out at his place to eat pizza and watch a movie if they've done that before in groups? Why SHOULDN'T she trust that he will do what he says he will do? What if she doesn't have the money for a cab or bus ride home? is she really supposed to say, "Kenny, we've known each other two decades but just so you know, I don't want to have sex with you." At what magical point does she say "no" and how is she to know it's coming?I've had it where I said "no" PLENTY of times to plenty of things and it went unheard. I said it in front of OTHERS, people who were supposed to be friends. I said "no" to butt-grabbing friend when I bent over and he just laughed. I repeated myself louder and my 'friends" defended HIM. I said, "No" to going into the bedroom and he kept persisting, persisting, persisting. I said, "stop" and got up many times due to being fondled when I was just trying to cuddle. I was "pissing him off" because I was correcting him in front of people. (if he backed off, he looked like a pussy so he kept going because it was "just a joke and you know me") When I shouted that I didn't WANT to be in the bedroom, he forced a kiss on me even though I struggled (he was more and more pissed when I struggled). He had carried me in while I was protesting and my friends did NOTHING. Since I lived with some of them, I couldn't leave right away, but I DID leave. I basically used the house to sleep and store my things until I could move back home. I said no MANY times but it wasn't heard or respected. No one would consider that rape, and most stopped talking to me after I said it was. Thank you for your help.
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female
reader, maverick494 +, writes (12 July 2014):
You raise a lot of important questions, but there is no easy answer for them. It's something that needs to be tackled from the source and that is the way we raise our children. This also includes school and extra curricular activities, because kids get exposed to these gender roles everywhere they go. And it just gets worse as they grow older.
I don't know if you saw that "throw like a girl" commercial that went viral a few weeks back. When girls aged 9 are asked to demonstrate how to throw like a girl, they try their best. It doesn't occur to them to do anything else. When an adult gets asked the same thing, they do some weak flapping and make comments about "oh no, my manicure/my hair" etc.
A girl with a lot of muscle tone (a.k.a. a strong girl) is often dismissed as being too masculine. Girls are expected to be weak, vain and to be an accessory to men. Many men think that girls put on makeup and dress up to appease them. That's what they've been taught. That's why you have so many boys and men walking around talking about how this woman "owes" them sex. They dressed up, so they must be asking for it! It does not occur to them that a woman dresses up to please herself first. Violence is glorified. If men can't get what they want the easy way, they'll take what they want regardless, as you've unfortunately experienced.
Of course now there will be a guy reading this saying "not all men are like that!" No, but that's like telling your friend after he survived a plane crash that not all planes malfunction. It's not the point. The point is that a lot of men are like that and that this needs to change. Every single woman has experienced sexual harassment during her life. Every single one of them! So when a man's reaction to that is to make it about him and his feelings, he's part of the problem.
To truly protect women from date-rape we need the male population at large to not condone date-rape. They need to be absolutely disgusted by just the idea of it. We need men to value woman as much as they value themselves. When that happens, this will stop. But how does one go about changing something that's so deeply ingrained? That's the problem.
As for what you can personally do to prevent date-rape is to forcefully take a stand against it. When a guy gropes you, grab his balls and yank. If he gets angry, tell him now he knows how every woman feels when he puts his hands where they don't belong. If he can't be reasoned with, pepper spray is a good deterrent. I'm serious. When a man treats me like I'm a piece of meat and his friends back him up despite me communicating I am absolutely NOT interested, I'll put him down in such a nasty way they'll think twice about crossing me again. It's not nice, but then, the world isn't nice.
Basically treat people who are good to you good. Treat douches like the piece of shit they. You don't have to be all respectful and have manners when he doesn't. I know that's hard because women are taught to always be gentle and graceful and to basically apologize for existing, but when dealing with scum you have to give them a taste of their own medicine. They can't be educated through reason, but they can be conditioned. They need to learn that their behavior yields no rewards and that good behavior does.
I was once cornered by a guy I'd known for a long time and whom I trusted. He was accusing me of "holding out on him". He basically made it clear I couldn't leave before having sex with him. I broke his jaw. It was a lucky shot, but a good one. I got the hell out. Later, the story circled he'd had a bad fall. I visited him and told him I was going to keep my mouth shut about the truth, but that if I ever got wind of him doing that to anyone else, I'd be back with a crowbar. Now, I'm not saying that this was the best course of action. It was a bit excessive and I could have gone to jail for it. But it worked, because his actions didn't give him the results he wanted. Instead of sex he he'd had pain.
This brings me to the next point: learn some self defense. Here are some basics.
1. When you punch, do not straighten out your entire arm. Keep it a little bent around the elbow (only a bit) so you can handle the impact. When making a fist, fold the thumb over your fingers. Never under.
2. Use dirty tricks: if you're in danger, punch him in the throat. It doesn't have to be hard to be effective: a nice blow there and he'll be out of commission long enough for you to make your exit. No BS about hitting his nose at the right angle; that never works unless you're good and when you're good you'll know 50 other techniques that are more effective.
3. Do make your exit; never stand around. He might be faking pain to draw you back in
A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (12 July 2014): We have already spent the last 30+ years telling men to treat women better in our culture.
It didn't work because we only told the men to act like better men. We failed to tell women to be attracted to those better men when they did it.
The majority of men have gotten the message. But the majority of women are still more attracted to the most incorrigible bad boys who won't obey it.
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A
female
reader, Honeypie + ♥, writes (11 July 2014):
 UNTIL we (society & parents) stop teaching boys to "go out and have fun" and girls to "stay safe" there is NO foolproof way of preventing rape or date-rape.
UNTIL girls are taught that it is OK to WALK away from a bad situation (let's say you are on the couch with your BF and he puts the moves on you and you tell him:" no I don't want sex", once, twice whatever number and he DOESN'T stop. IT IS OK to get up and leave. REMOVE yourself from the situation. SO often GIRLS are taught to be GOOD girls. TO PLEASE people.
Society expects girls to be like little dogs obedient and pleasing. (they can be smart, funny, successful, artistic and other good things too) but LITTLE girls are taught to be GOOD. And they are TAUGHT to be a girl is NOT as good as being a boy. Think about, how many times have ANYONE heard:"oh you throw like a boy"? - "LIKE A GIRL" has a negative connotation.
UNTIL we (society & parents) teach boys & girls that rape is NEVER OK, there is no foolproof way to avoid rape (other than never leave you house, but even then.. you aren't 100% safe).
UNTIL WE (society & parents)STOP shaming the victims of rape, but looking for FAULTS in her (oh her skirt was short, her boobs are big, she didn't run, she was drunk, she.. whatever...) and start putting the FULL blame on the rapist it will never stop.
GIRLS are taught no, means no. But If they YELL or SCREAM no, or RAPE or GET AWAY FROM ME they are LESS likely to get help then if they yell FIRE!
Some boys are taught that no CAN means yes, if you just try harder. Some are taught that boys will be boys and they have so little control when their penis is hard that they can't think straight...
Last but not least, SOME girls are taught that "bad boys" are a good thing. Someone once told me that EVERY girls should date one bad boy, just to get it out of her system. I think it was the dumbest advice I have ever heard.
THESE are just SOME of the reason why we haven't eradicated rape in all the thousands of years of mankind's existence.
But there are SMALL steps we (women) can take, but again they are NOT foolproof.
Women can take self defense classes but are also taught that in many cases "giving what HE wants" will up the chance of survival.
Rape should NEVER be OK.
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A
male
reader, Mark1978  +, writes (11 July 2014):
 Unfortunately the kind of men who perpetrate such vile crimes against women are not the kind of people who can be educated nor reasoned with on the matter. They do not and will not see that they are doing something wrong, or simply don't care. Many convince themselves that the woman, or indeed all women, deserve it.
As for guys who force kisses and wont let a no prevent them touching a womans body, well they are usually conforming to a certain type. Not always, but usually. Cocky, arrogant, fuelled by testosterone and booze, swaggering around like John Wayne....trying to educate men like that is like banging yoru head against a wall.
As for the rest of us standing up for women and challenging inappropriate behaviour, well the problem is that many of these men are the kind of blokes who are cocky, think they are gods gift and very much the Alpha Male in any group. Challenging a man like that is a risky business. How many times do we hear of have-a-go-hero's been stabbed, shot or beaten to death? Sadly its often those of us who are disturbed and angry at the treatment of women by some men, who are the least appropriate in terms of personality to challenge them.
A friend of mine saw a woman getting knocked around be her partner and went over and defended her. BANG! next thing he knew he was lying in a pool of blood and teeth having been struck over the head by a wine bottle....by the woman he was protecting. Another friend saw a man not taking no for an answer at a party and went over and asked the guy to leave her alone only to be threatened with a knife and told to mind his own effing business.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (10 July 2014): OK OP, you are still blaming yourself because you did things you were taught were wrong. You are at least right in blaming your friends because they were not acting as friends. I think it's worse that your FEMALE friends weren't standing up for you and instead almost encouraged it. You did point out that you all had different intentionsn and values and personalities. Since you weren't as assertive as they were, you COULDN'T stand up for yourself/carry yourself like they did. And they assumed that meant that you "wanted it" and couldn't compute "relatively timid woman". They should have been there for you, they really should have.You prevent date rape the same way you prevent MOST crimes: looking out for safety. My boyfriend (6'2", 250) was robbed several years ago. When he made the police report, NO ONE asked, "Well, how drunk WERE you?" (very) "Why were you out at 2 a.m.?" (alcohol), "Why were you carrying hundreds of dollars in cash?" (was worried someone would steal it out of his hotel room). No one victim blamed. If he were sober, he MAY have still been robbed. If he weren't drinking at a bar, he wouldn't have been OUT at 2 a.m. and he would have been less likely to have been robbed. But he could have beeen coming back from a church event at 9 at night and STILL gotten robbed. The problem is, they don't question the guy on what he was doing/what he was wearining etc. They DO question the victim, cops, nurses, and friends alike. THAT is what needs to STOP I've been asked, "Are you SURE that's what happened?" (did a robbing victim get asked that? NO) The blame is on the victim. If she is drunk, she wasn't smart. If the rapist was drunk, well ... he didn't knwo what he was doing (excuses).At the end of the day, you SHOULD be able to prance down a dark alley stark naked and drunk and not get hurt. But you can't. You CAN choose to make sure you're safe and that your intentions (especially with male friends) are clear. You can refrain from acting sexually. WE (society) prevent date-rape by talking to the MEN about how WOMEN usually don't intent to sleep with them or go home with them or go into the bedroom with them. You tell them that "I don't give out my number, I don't want to go into the bedroom, and STOP KISSING ON ME" mean exactly that and they have NO business trying to press after that first "no".WE (Society) prevent date-rape by looking out for one another by encouraging men to stand up and tell another man to leave a woman alone. By encouraging women to watch out for each other and to DISCOURAGE too much touching/going alone with the guy ESPECIALLY if alcohol is involved. By pointing out to cops/nurses/friends that it doesn't MATTER what the victim was wearing (they're in the evidence bag) and not to pass judgment, or that she was drinking (so was the RAPIST most likely), or to ask why she was out late at night. That's not important. They only need to know it was midnight, she was walking home from work because she had no car and she HAD to work those hours because of classes and taking care of kids etc. that's not the time to ask if she's "sure" if you woudln't ask that of a drunken robbery victim.THAT will go a LONG way in preventing it.
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A
female
reader, YouWish +, writes (10 July 2014):
 Anon Reader: It's okay to disagree with me, and to the OP, from this part of your original post, it appeared to me as if you were living with the guy because of this: "Since I lived with some of them, I couldn't leave right away, but I DID leave. I basically used the house to sleep and store my things until I could move back home." and because you mentioned the bedroom the guy forced you into as "the bedroom".
I'm glad you came back to clarify that that didn't mean that you live with this guy. I apologize for misunderstanding.
The anon reader didn't read my post all the way. I was very clear that NOTHING is justification for forcing an unwilling person to have sex, even if it's your girlfriend or spouse. There's no point where a guy should feel entitled to have any sex act based on anything that ever happens in the past.
The guy talking about how you refusing "makes him look like a pussy" should get his nose broken. There *are* guys who step in on that stuff. My own brother did it for a friend of mine whose boyfriend (loose term) grabbed her breast at the mall. He didn't break her nose, but he threw him against the wall after the guy laughed off his admonishment to treat her with respect and knock it off.
Sorry I offended you, anon. I'm no mysogenistic rapist-apologist. I stand by my opinion that someone who isn't interested in becoming sexual with a guy they're dating should state that upfront from the get-go, and not get into any compromising situations. There's a *shouldn't* aspect in this, meaning no guy should ever push past a "no". However, why do we have locks on our doors or safes in our houses? Because of thieves! It's not "victim-blaming" to suggest a security system or locking away our belongings in a safe or getting insurance for our homes or cars. It's common sense. Likewise, there ARE rapists out there, even date rapists, so to say that employing common sense is "victim-blaming" is naive at best. A guy *shouldn't* rape. A person *shouldn't* burglarize a home. But both things happen, so protection for both and preventative actions should be taken. I had a guy try to rape me when I was 16 in his car at a lake near my house. Luckily I was able to get free and escape and run. So please don't ever make the mistake of considering me a rapist advocate, because quite frankly, that really insults me.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (10 July 2014): OP here
A lot of answers here express the frustration that I have. I guess it's about being on your guard without offending most nice men because you're blaming them for 6% of the population. I agree that it's under reported and I know of a situation where the girl WANTED to report it and her friends did nothing but talk her out of it. The thinking is that her behavior (or naivity) PUT her there and it's he-said-she-said. It rarely actually gets prosecuted and the "friends" don't wnat to say anything against the guy in court because he's their friend too and they "don't want to get ivoloved".
In my story, I want to point out to YouWish that I didn't live with the guy. I was young, in college, and living in a rented house with 5 other people - some male, some female. I had my own tiny room which is where the "friend" who did ultimately force me into it took me. When I said I used the house to sleep and store my things, I mean that I lived there but after all that avoided it as much as I could because they weren't friends. I wanted nothing to do with any of them. I only slept/stored things there until I could move back home (several hundred miles) to be with my parents. I paid the rent from home to be fair, but they screwed me (financially) as much as possible (long story, but it was basically punishment).
I think with those friends, my parents said they weren't friends either but that a) woman have no business living with men if they aren't related or married b) I had no business drinking and should have called the police and told on my friends for doing it c) I shouldn't have moved far away from home where they couldn't "keeP an eye on me" and so on.
Looking back, I really had no reason to think these friends were going to do that, but it WAS quite often assumed that if you were dating/messing around, it was headed for sex. It was assumed, that if you talked to a guy (or if they set you up with a guy), it was so you could maybe date him later. Males and females "could" be just-friends but I seemeed to be the only one who couldn't get away with that. That happened in high school too and I was later told by a guy friend "it's because you're too feminine for that, you're never considered one of the guys".
So I think it's personality. On a larger scale, my female friends were ultra-confident, sort of in-your-face people who COULD dress in skimpy clothing, make men want them, and be just fine. I was too passive and quiet to pull that off. I didn't know how to navigate the party scene because all I knew was, "it's a bad place to be, nice girls don't do that." So part of it was upbringing too. My parents would never condone rape, but in a way, they do. There was a person on a talk show once who had escaped terrible abuse and near death. When she mentioned her husband raped her, my mother looked confused and said, "She was married to him, you're supposed to do that with your husband."
I guess it's hard to tell how to trust someone because it public and among others and at first, we all have on a different or more "standoffish" face. I don't think my friend waited years to invite me to his house for pizza so he could hit on me (he did hit on me but I got uncomfortable and went home), but I guess I just have to acceopt that some men will never see women as equals. They aren't really thinking "pizza" like they do with a group or with guy friends. Because I'm NOT a guy and I need to stop trying (and so do many women) to do things that men "get away with" just because it's their right. At the end of the day, the nicest guy in the world isn't seeing her as an equal, he's seeing her as a friend but a potential "something else later".
I just wish it were more reported and that MEN would take responsibility too by standing up and saying something even in simple situations such as "Friend! Melissa told you not to grab her butt, what's your problem" or "Hey, this lady is trying to get past you on the sidewalk, leave her alone and let her pass."
I have come to the conclusion that men and women just think differently (we do) and even though we are equals, while many women see flirting etc as THE POINT, to the man, it's a means to an end. I also think that a womean needs to know how to talk to men because while being friendly, I have been taken the wrong way. Conservatively dressed and three feet away, I have been taken the wrong way. That is why I was taught not to talk to or approach men because THEY were the agressors, not me. While all I want to do is be friendly, I know for some reason I can't get away with that - maybe it's just not hard-wired into me.
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A
female
reader, anonymous, writes (10 July 2014): Firstly, I am mortified by YouWish's answer. Mortified. That's the kind if answer I would expect from a misogynistic rapist, not a woman. Not even a normal, intelligent man. Nothing in the question posed justified that sort of attack. To blatantly make up things that did not exist in the original question, and then attack her for them...just, wow. And you can throw in all the "nothing justifies rape" stuff all you want, but when your focus is on what the victim did wrong, you're still diminishing rape. And that's just as bad as victim blaming, or justifying rape. You're saying, in your mind(based on what, I have no idea, because it certainly wasn't anything she said), she used a guy. Or she deceived him - again, I have no idea where you got that information, because it certainly didn't come from the question. But however you came to those conclusions, the fact that you're focusing on those instead of the rape says that you think that's more important than rape. You think "using a guy" or "deceiving them" is worse than a man raping a woman, is what you're saying. Again, not that anything in her question would indicate she did either. I mean, for the love of god, SHE DIDN'T EVEN SAY SHE WAS LIVING WITH A GUY!!! SHE SAID SHE WAS LIVING WITH SOME OF THE FRIENDS WHO DIDN'T HELP HER!!! Ok, I need to digress, because I'm getting more angry the more I think about that answer. I hope you will re-read the question and reconsider what you wrote.
As for the OP...I understand you are frustrated. You should be frustrated. We all should be frustrated. We live in a society where rape is justified, excused, overlooked, and diminished(see above). Even people who don't outright blame the victim will diminish what happened to them. Boys will be boys, it's not that bad, just get over it and move on. Or they won't believe them, claiming they agreed to it and later regretted it or just want the attention. (And they'll act like this happens all the time, despite the fact that less than 3% of reported rapes are false.) It's outrageous and sickening.
To answer all your "why SHOULDN'T" questions...they should. That's the only answer. They should be able to do all of those things. But, at the end of the day, all of those things put a woman at a higher risk of being raped. Those are the decisions we're faced with every day. I mean, parents should be able to let their children walk home from school or go to a friend's house, but they're at risk of being kidnapped, especially if they're alone. People should feel safe driving around in the middle of the night, but there's a higher risk of getting into an accident, particularly involving a drunk driver. Bad things happen. We should all be trying to stop them from happening, but we still have to be aware that they do happen and protect ourselves.
How do you avoid date/acquaintance rape? I think that's something not a lot of people talk about, because there aren't any easy answers. Some of the aunts here have covered it well, I think. You just have to be careful who you surround yourself with. And this goes for life in general, men and women, not just rape avoidance. Surround yourself with good people, people you can trust. I bet, if you looked back, you'd find a lot of red flags with those "friends" who didn't help you...not to say it's your fault for being friends with them, just simply it's something you may be able to learn from. For example, while they may have been nice to you, maybe you've noticed that they're mean to strangers. (I've always felt that you can learn all you need to know about a person by how they treat servers at restaurants.) If they're mean to strangers, or mean to people they don't like, there's a good chance they'll do something mean to you when they don't like you. Do they talk about people behind their backs? Chance are, they're talking about you behind your back, and you may not know how they truly feel about you.
As for guys specifically...it's tough to describe, exactly. I would just suggest being very aware of how they're acting. The first answer from Euphoric29 said it well in her list of red flags, and I definitely agree with her. Note thst you're not just trying to avoid rapists...even guys that might not ever rape you can turn very bitter and jealous, controlling, or abusive later. Always keep in mind that, when you first meet a guy, he's giving you his "best" side. You may not, and in fact probably are not, seeing the true him. Just look for little signals...look at his facial expressions. You can be able to gleam something from them, from instand reactions he has to things thst you say or do, even if they don't match his words or actions. If you tell a guy you're saving yourself for marriage, you may sense a brief look of anger or annoyance, even if he then smiles and says it's no big deal...chances are you'll find out that anger/annoyance reflected his true feelings. You just have to be tuned into little things...you might feel bad about making snap judgments about people like that, and you might start to question yourself and want to give them another shot, but trust me, your "gut feeling" will be right far more often than you could ever imagine. I'm speaking from experience...every time I've gone against my initial instinct with a guy, I've regretted it.
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A
male
reader, anonymous, writes (10 July 2014): Research shows that about 94% of men virtually never force sex on any woman. But assaults are so prevalent because the other 6% of men do it CONSTANTLY.
More needs to be reported (both men and women can spread the word) so we can single out the problem men.
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A
male
reader, olderthandirt  +, writes (10 July 2014):
 In my sate(Texas) you can get a conceled carry permit that allows you to own and carry small handgun. That might not keep creeps from trying to rape but it will ertainly stop them from carrying it out. I'd recommend all young ladies gea gun and carry permit whereever possible. This might put an end to the whole issue. There will still be creeps out there but they might have gunshot wounds to deal with. Good luck and avoid the creeps.
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A
reader, anonymous, writes (10 July 2014): I don't think there is any way to completely avoid the chance this could happen at some point because there are a lot of psychos out there who are pretty devious. But there are things we can do to protect ourselves as much as possible by avoiding obviously dangerous situations already mentioned and more. Carefully choosing the kind of people we associate with/live with is an important start. I don't think that living with a man in a communal setting suggests you necessarily want to have sex with him, plenty of people live together in various settings like rentals and they never have sex with each other or rape each other. Nor does going to a man's place for a meal etc. suggest or mean he is entitled to sex. Will some men expect that, yes, but the majority won't rape you or do anything to make you feel uncomfortable. I have dated a fair amount and gone to have dinner at a man's place a few times and none of them ever tried to rape me thank god. I didn't have sex with any of them. As a woman I'm usually on alert for that sort of thing, but of course this can happen to men too. You have to try to judge people's character from their behavior, what they say and do as much as you can in advance. Take time to get to know people and if you see any bad signs like this remove them from your life. I think this guy gave you plenty of signals that he was a bully and a potential rapist at least from what you've written here alone. When he didn't respond properly to you telling him no sex, you should have cut him out of your life and not spent any time with him at all, especially not alone with him. In the case you described I don't think cuddling with this man was a good idea since he was obviously sending signals loud and clear that he wanted more than that and he was aggressive and a jerk. And obviously living with him and these friends wasn't a good choice in the first place. I'm not sure what the circumstances were or the reason why you were living with these people or if you were living with him or not, not that it justifies in anyway what they all did or what he did. I would warn other people about him if you can. This probably isn't the first time he has done this and it won't be the last.
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A
female
reader, maisy1 +, writes (9 July 2014):
As a woman the only thing I can do to avoid the possibility of being raped is by being vigilant as to making sure my drink isn't spiked, avoiding men in clubs and bars who clearly have had too much to drink, too much attitude or obviously want to get laid and make sure the people I go out with are true friends I can trust who will stick in the group and don't put themselves or the rest of us at risk by going off alone. In my younger years I would flirt and enjoy being quite suggestive with guys thinking it was just a laugh and I didn't need to actually act upon it. But I soon learned that doing so is likely to end in some men thinking they can do what the hell they want because you have snogged them, let them fondle your backside or whatever. Euphoria29 has made some good points. Avoid men who clearly are either passive agressors or aggressive and arrogant. I know that's hardly an exact science but common sense should weed out some, if not all, of the men who are thinking with their dicks and not their heads. Caring guy is correct - we cannot stop rapists from raping, but I do think we can do a lot to help prevent us from becoming a victim. As with any type of crime we can make it easy or difficult for the perpetrator to make us the victim. Ive thankfully never been raped but I have been stalked badly twice. I look back now and realize many of my own actions made me those horrid peoples victims. My behaviours contributed to me being the victim. It wasn't my fault but I could have protected myself, stood up for myself and been less naive. I do get frustrated and scared sometimes when I see my friends or younger sister acting irresponsibly. There are plenty of nice, genuine men out there but in my experience they don't go to rowdy bars or clubs ;-) take care x
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A
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reader, CaringGuy +, writes (9 July 2014):
I suppose when you truly sit there and think about it, you come to the conclusion that there is actually next to nothing that a woman can really do about the date rape, or rape of any kind if a rapist has made his mind up to commit the crime. It would be the same as asking a victim of murder to avoid being murdered by the murderer - not possible.
That's because ultimately, rape is about the mindset of the rapist, and not the woman. This is what is always left out of the talk about rape. Rape is about the rapist - the sick mind that wants to do this to a woman (or man)
It won't matter what you do to avoid it, if a rapist is going to do it, he will do it no matter what, and sadly I don't think there is much a woman can do to stop it.
That is ultimately why the precautionary measures exist. It actually has nothing to do with victim blaming, and everything to do with the fact that you can't control a sick mind that wants to rape someone.
All you can do is what you did yourself - if someone is getting to close, fight them off and call them out on their behaviour. If your so called friends stop talking to you, maybe they're not friends. If you are out and you feel unsafe, make it public asap. Watch that you don't leave your drink unattended in case it's spiked. Because a sick mind will try what it can to get what it wants, and no one can stop that until it's happened (and even then it's difficult)
In my opinion, rape can only be stopped by men. I do think that men should play a bigger role in calling harassment out, and I think men should condemn crap behaviour more. I don't think we do enough. I never did until my sister went to university and admitted she'd been harassed on occasion. Then I started to pay more attention. I've stepped up a few times on the train when there have been weirdos harassing women. If more men stood up, and took notice, then I think you'd see it decrease.
Until that happens, the precautionary measures are the best you can do. And, always remember that the vast majority of men are very good, decent guys. Unfortunately there are a handful who give us a bad name here and there.
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reader, Tisha-1 +, writes (9 July 2014):
 It's very difficult to avoid date-rape, which is essentially being sexually assaulted and/or raped by someone you trusted. That's why it's such a terrible crime. Just like domestic abuse is a crime, but women still find themselves being beaten by the men they love.
What you need to do is to go to a rape crisis center and get some counseling and support and figure out how it is you keep putting yourself in harm's way.
Are you referring to this post? http://www.dearcupid.org/question/im-a-virgin-but-this-turns-men-off.html It's pretty clear that this poster needs professional counseling and i'm thinking that you do as well.
I would start here https://rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault and get that help asap.
Sorry you are so stuck and confused by this, you need to take some positive action to help yourself now.
If you go online here https://ohl.rainn.org/online/ you can get online help right now to help you cope. Best wishes.
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reader, Mark1978 +, writes (9 July 2014):
In an ideal world we should all have the right to do what we want, when we want in total safety, assuming what we are doing is both moral and legal of course. All women should be able to go out, flirt, drink, make friends, talk to guys and so on without being raped, drugged to the point they don't know what has happened to them, touched up if they do not want to be or forced into kissing or anything else. we should also be able to rely on and trust our friends and partners to keep us safe and well and respect our wishes if we say no.
Sadly that's not the world we live in. We live in a hostile world where there are far too many people who wish to invade those rights. Often those people are those we ourselves see as friends or partners - statistically far fewer women are raped by a stranger than those raped by an acquaintance.
Its a frightening fact that most rape victims actually knew their attacker before the ordeal. But its also worth bearing in mind that in the majority of pre-planned cases the rapist, whether it be by date rape drug or by physical force, has carefully chosen his victim before hand based on her body language, how she responds to male attention, her clothing, the behaviour and limits she exhibits socially and how she and her friends behave collectively and as individuals, and so on and so forth. Many rapes are not random, the victim has very sadly become a victim for a particular reason or reasons.
I am not suggesting for one moment that all rape victims, or people who have had their "no's" ignored and limits violated, have made mistakes. Neither am I suggesting for one moment that they "brought it on themselves" by revealing too much flesh or by having a good time, or whatever. Far from it. Some women are just unlucky or in the wrong place at the wrong time, others would have had no way of knowing that a perfectly pleasant, likeably, respectful chap could be such a monster behind closed doors. Sometimes its the case that a man has drunk too much and not taken the womans please seriously.
However I am always shocked by how many women took ridiculous risks on nights out. Often sensible, mature, intelligent women who would normally be very aware would become very different after drinking and partying. I drove through my former home city recently at around 3am and there were dozens of stunning young women, in very skimpy outfits, drunkenly asking for drivers at the lights if they were going their way home. Cars full of jeering young lads would be piping their horns shouting "we are going your way darlin'" and many of the women would actually get into a car full of guys she didn't know, semi conscious, and scantily clad. Most of them would probably wake up the following morning not knowing what, or indeed who, had happened to them. Ive also been out with friends or co-workers; decent, sensible people, who have got so drunk that they have had to be rescued by a real friend from being taken home by some dodgy so called "friend" who clearly was trying to take advantage.
Again don't miss understand me - im not saying ALL, or indeed many, women behave in such an irresponsible manner. Yet as a man who does take no for an answer and would never pester or refuse to stop if it was against a womans wishes, I do find it sad and depressing to witness women put themselves at risk in such a way. I often see women overtly flirting and getting touchy feely with men who are clearly out to get sex and put their raging hormones and need to impress their mates and be the alpha male of the group take priority over respecting the womans wishes or her body.
OP I have used this site for a while now on and off and answered many, many questions, and read hundreds more. We often get questions from women who have been either date raped, suspect such an incident may of occurred, been terrified by a guy, assaulted by a man, forced to do something they didn't want to or had their boundries violated. Very sadly in SOME of those instances its clear that the victims themselves either missed, or chose to ignore, sometimes quite obvious dangers and put themselves in a very vulnerable situation either through naivity, misplaced trust in someone who had a history of pushing for sex or because their judgment was impaired by drink. Often their so called friends showed their true colours by doing nothing to assist or actively encouraged the perpetrator in the manner you describe, yet its so sadly often the case that these same so called friends had been far from responsible or sensible or indeed protective for a while before hand, yet the victim still perceived them as true friends who could be trusted until too late.
A friend of mine was mugged and beaten up walking home alone one night in the early hours with well over a thousand pounds in cash in his pocket, a high end mobile (cell phone) and expensive jewellery. The muggers took the lot. Now he is not to blame for that and is very much the victim and it was a horrid experience, but to walk home alone at 2am in a rough part of town, down a dark alley, with a grand in cash and waving an expensive phone around?!
My friend should have had the right to walk down that alley with as much money he wanted about his person, but that's not how it works is it.
There is a big difference between FAULT or BLAME, and RESPONSIBILITY. We all have a responsibility to look out for ourselves and our friends and to be hyper sensitive to those around us especially on nights out. Its the world we live in sadly. We also need to ensure we don't assume friends are true friends with honourable intentions, especially if their past actions are not those of a genuine, caring, decent fellow. When it comes to the violation of a persons wishes, not taking no for an answer or sexual assault, the perpetrator usually both displays some behaviours before hand which should act as a red flag and chooses a victim based not on chance but on the potential victims behaviours, actions and trust.
A woman doesn't have to avoid flirting, dress like a Sunday school teacher, have her hair like her gran and quietly sip a ginger ale on a night out to avoid being date raped. Far from it. But she does need to use common sense and make sure both she and her friends are kept safe.
I really hope I don't need to reiterate to any woman NOT to allow men to a buy her a drink in a glass or unsealed bottle. Many date rapes involve the use of drugs which are tasteless and odourless being slipped into drinks. The woman appears drunk and the "kind" man helps her home while unsuspecting drinkers and staff look on oblivious to the fact that the woman is drugged and unable to stay conscious. Such a crime is terrible, frightening and despicable yet it goes on so often and could be avoided if more women were more cautious. Of course its impossible to be absolutely certain nobody has spiked a drink but many of my female friends don't give it a thought and happily guzzle drinks offered by men on nights out. Their friends get genuinely drunk and don't notice or assume their friend is in for a great time if they suddenly leave with a guy. Its a horrid thought.
Euphoric29 gives great advice for women out for the evening - avoid the men who are cocky, arrogant, clearly vying for the Alpha Male role and acting like they are king of the jungle. Any man who does the "Alright babes!" routine, has clearly had to much to drink or comes across as gods gift is also best avoided. If a man pushes to soon for sex or clearly gets touchy feely in a club then its a no brainer that going to his flat will end in more of the same but no one around to help if he gets too heavy handed.
As for not wanting sex but wanting to flirt...flirting is fine up to a point and certainly shouldn't give carte blanche for a man to do what he wants with you. Women should be able to flirt with a man without being forced into something. But once you get into heavy petting and touching/feeling it can be taken by SOME men that they are "on for one". It shouldn't be that way but it is. Telling a man you don't want sex while he is gropping your boobs, high on testosterone and rubbing his penis against your body is a little too late for some men to take no for an answer - that isn't right and should not be the case, but many men think that if you have let them go so far you have given them the green light to go the whole way. A woman telling a man she doesn't want sex before marriage while stroking his erection in a bar is one example I have heard of before.
Your question is more about long term friends than strangers however.
Well there is no easy answer im afraid. What I will say is that your own friends sound like people you were at risk with and you let it go too far. You say "I said no MANY times but it wasn't heard or respected" If you have said no several times and on every occasion your no has meant nothing, there is no point ever putting yourself in that position again. Stay well away. Don't let the cycle repeat, don't hope that the situation will change, avoid that person. Your so called friends clearly don't give a shit about you and if they laughed at his attempts to force you into things you were unhappy with then maybe ask yourself if the people you are associating with are genuine friends or people who are "friends" with you wanting to get laid.
As for the other situations you suggest, such as a pizza with a male friend, I agree up to a point with the notion that (at least some of the time) a friendship between a man and woman will never be 100% platonic. Usually one or the other would have sex with the other if they could. To me personally if a woman hangs out with a guy at his place one on one and eats pizza and watches a film that suggests something more than friendship is likely to occur, or at least that the guy would try it on. I know some wont agree with me but in my book if a guy says "how about coming round my flat for a pizza and watching a film" that would, in my mind at least, sound like he wants more than someone to eat half the pizza and pass the tv remote. Regardless of how many times the woman has done that with the guy when other have been present.
If you don't want sex don't go back to a guys place one on one.
As for not having money for a us or cab fare home....well come on! Every woman MUST have that at all times. Any woman who gets stranded on a night out or at a male friends house one on one is being very foolish and naïve.
Mark
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reader, YouWish +, writes (9 July 2014):
Come on, now. This is a no-brainer.
If you're with a guy who doesn't respect "no", you leave the guy. You break up. You ditch him for good. It should never *get* to the point of you using a guy's place to store stuff, spending lots of time at his house hanging out, and getting people to buy you cab fare. If you go out somewhere, you should HAVE cab fare!
You used the house to sleep and store until you could move back home? Did you use his feelings for you in order to get this place? I agree that no one should have sex against someone's will, and if they force you, it's rape or sexual assault based on the activity. The guy grabbing the butt is sexual assault. Forcing his penis inside is rape.
But what the hell? If you're not interested in becoming sexual, then don't go live with a guy. Don't DO the things associated with sexuality if you're not interested in being sexual. That's USING a guy to get what you want.
Nothing justifies rape. But nothing justifies using people for your own gain. If you don't want to have sex with a guy, you don't go live together with him and share a bedroom. You can't use people.
And yes, if you're not interested in sex, you don't get into compromising situations, and you find guys compatible with your sexual values, meaning you find a guy who is also following a lifestyle of abstinence, and they do exist.
I know you consider the guidelines to be "victim-blaming", but they are not. You're getting things mixed up with why a rapist blames their victim, such as "she was dressed slutty", or "she was asking for it" or "I bought her a dinner, so she needs to put out". That is different.
I don't care if I get torn up by other aunts who disagree with me in this one, but you can't have the benefits of partnership if you're not willing to be a partner. Living with a guy, getting hot and heavy, accepting gifts, favors, all of that without being upfront and yes, saying "I never want to have sex with you" from the start is leading a guy on. Yes, you DO tell a guy from the first date that you practice abstinence or "no sex until marriage". Then you won't be moving in with guys, and the guys who prefer sex in their relationship will steer clear as they should.
You're deceiving a guy if you are not upfront about never wanting sex. You can't get with guys without disclosing that and then get pissed later when they want to progress in time. You can't get pissed over sexual incompatibility if you weren't clear about it from the start, and it's not victim blaming for getting pissed that your dating choices become a lot less if you're upfront. That's a bait-and-switch.
If this guy forced himself inside you, then it's rape. Even husbands and boyfriends can rape, and having sex once doesn't entitle free sex whenever. Sex must be, at all times, between two willing people. So I'm not justifying his actions if he raped. However, what he should have done is end the relationship with you, and you should have ended it too long before then.
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reader, YouWish +, writes (9 July 2014):
Come on, now. This is a no-brainer.
If you're with a guy who doesn't respect "no", you leave the guy. You break up. You ditch him for good. It should never *get* to the point of you using a guy's place to store stuff, spending lots of time at his house hanging out, and getting people to buy you cab fare. If you go out somewhere, you should HAVE cab fare!
You used the house to sleep and store until you could move back home? Did you use his feelings for you in order to get this place? I agree that no one should have sex against someone's will, and if they force you, it's rape or sexual assault based on the activity. The guy grabbing the butt is sexual assault. Forcing his penis inside is rape.
But what the hell? If you're not interested in becoming sexual, then don't go live with a guy. Don't DO the things associated with sexuality if you're not interested in being sexual. That's USING a guy to get what you want.
Nothing justifies rape. But nothing justifies using people for your own gain. If you don't want to have sex with a guy, you don't go live together with him and share a bedroom. You can't use people.
And yes, if you're not interested in sex, you don't get into compromising situations, and you find guys compatible with your sexual values, meaning you find a guy who is also following a lifestyle of abstinence, and they do exist.
I know you consider the guidelines to be "victim-blaming", but they are not. You're getting things mixed up with why a rapist blames their victim, such as "she was dressed slutty", or "she was asking for it" or "I bought her a dinner, so she needs to put out". That is different.
I don't care if I get torn up by other aunts who disagree with me in this one, but you can't have the benefits of partnership if you're not willing to be a partner. Living with a guy, getting hot and heavy, accepting gifts, favors, all of that without being upfront and yes, saying "I never want to have sex with you" from the start is leading a guy on. Yes, you DO tell a guy from the first date that you practice abstinence or "no sex until marriage". Then you won't be moving in with guys, and the guys who prefer sex in their relationship will steer clear as they should.
You're deceiving a guy if you are not upfront about never wanting sex. You can't get with guys without disclosing that and then get pissed later when they want to progress in time. You can't get pissed over sexual incompatibility if you weren't clear about it from the start, and it's not victim blaming for getting pissed that your dating choices become a lot less if you're upfront. That's a bait-and-switch.
If this guy forced himself inside you, then it's rape. Even husbands and boyfriends can rape, and having sex once doesn't entitle free sex whenever. Sex must be, at all times, between two willing people. So I'm not justifying his actions if he raped. However, what he should have done is end the relationship with you, and you should have ended it too long before then.
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reader, Euphoric29  +, writes (9 July 2014):
Dear OP,
I don't want to give you any smart-ass advice about how to avoid such situations. Because also situations happened to me, to friends too, where our "no" was not respected. And I don't believe there is much that we did wrong. There's something wrong with the way people think about sex. That it's basically a human right for men, but not for women, to enjoy it. That it defines a man, if he's able to "score". That it defines a woman as "hard-to-get" or "easy", how fast she will "give in" to sex. So, basically, our language already implies it's something that might be uncomfortable to us, that we need to be talked into and persuaded to do.
Due to some bad experiences, I have become quite good at predicting which men to avoid, I guess. But that was a painful learning process and it shouldn't be that way. I am not blaming any victim. Just as I don't blame a mailman who gets bitten by a dog. It's just that maybe, a mailman who has been bitten a few times, gets more agile at avoiding the angry dogs.
To avoid "date-rape" or more harmless forms of experiences like that, I see every first few encounters with a man as a test. If a guy is easily upset, has low self-confidence and is passive-aggressive, I will avoid him. Such guys often sell themselves as sensitive and want our pity, yet they get super-pissed-off when they are frustrated. Also, I avoid men that are too good-looking, dominant and overly obsessed with being popular. Hm. I realize it's hard to describe my "red flags". Just, I don't trust most men. Yep, that's my recipe, basically. It's all the more beautiful if I encounter a man that I do trust. That's very important for me, too. Not to let the bad experiences wash over all the good ones. And make me forget about the decent, kind, compassionate men out there. Because I've met men like that and they exist and shouldn't be stigmatized, either.
One of my friends got over a very bad experience by taking a self-defense course for women. One part of it was not fighting techniques, but communication and involving strangers to help you. It's called wen-do. Maybe this would be something I could recommend.
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