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Catholic man marrying atheist woman. Catholic church, civil ceremony or compromise?

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Question - (11 June 2014) 10 Answers - (Newest, 14 June 2014)
A male United Kingdom age 36-40, *iggy1987 writes:

I am a catholic. My fiance is an atheist. We have been together for nearly 4 years and love each other very much. I want to get married in a catholic church and she wants a civil ceremony. We have stalled with wedding plans because we just don't know what to do, or if there is a compromise?

Any help much appreciated.

View related questions: atheist, fiance, wedding

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A female reader, Tisha-1 United States +, writes (14 June 2014):

Tisha-1 agony auntHi Ziggy, if you have any followup, as you wrote "any help is much appreciated," please message me so that we can get it posted for you.

I will start a thread for the aunts who wish to debate the topic separately. If any aunts wonder where their posts went, well, if you didn't offer advice to the OP, and instead chose to debate the topic with another aunt, that post was either not published or was removed.

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A reader, anonymous, writes (13 June 2014):

You're making a lot of assumptions about the OP, Getta. He's marrying an atheist, neither of them are as hardcore about religion or atheism as would be needed for your points to be valid. They wouldn't even be able to maintain a relationship in the first place if they were that diametrically opposed. If she hated his religion and wanted to deny him anything in life that was as important as this subject is to you he wouldn't be with her, so that's not the issue here.

They're talking about a wedding in a church vs. a registry office, not grand spiritually and the existence or not of a divine being, you're making a lot of leaps and assumptions.

Your posts are arguing irrelevant points to basically say his beliefs are more important than hers. They're not, hers are just as valid and he wouldn't be here if that wasn't the case he'd just have made demands or went with a person of similar religious persuasion.

Both have an equal right to sacrifices, the religious person doesn't get more of a right to have more sacrificed for them, because guess what, non-belief is just as important to us that are that way. Being religious does not make a person more important nor does it make their beliefs more important, just different.

None of your points arguing that, including that stuff about proving non-existence, are valid to the OP's situation. For the record though you can't by nature of logic "prove" something doesn't exist, non-existence is the existence of nothing, there's no way to prove 'nothing' exists, that's a logical fallacy. You say the apple you have is green, then you show me the apple; I say you don't have an apple, again you have to show me the apple to prove to me that you have one, you not showing me makes me right by default until you show it to me because while you're not, there is no apple. You're the one making the original claim that you have an apple and it's green. That's why it's called a faith because there will never be proof of it, there are no certainties at all.

Balance/equality is the only thing that makes their kind of relationship work, a mutual respect for each others beliefs and of course sacrifices. They just so happen to have reached an impasse about this one topic.

A compromise may be possible but so might one relenting and agreeing to the other's way, making a sacrifice. You can't ask someone to sacrifice something for you when you don't accept that they're even making one in the first place, that's not how life works. You can argue as much as you want that the OP has a divine right to feel his views are more important but that would mean casting down the importance of his fiancée's and it would be a huge mistake for him to take that position.

His beliefs are not more important than hers no matter how you try to argue that they are. Believing in a religion does not give a person an automatic right to feel more important about anything. Religion is not more important than non-religion, she too gets to decide how she wants her life to be and how her marriage will begin.

The OP would be ill advised to take your position on this and make it into something he digs his heels into.

The marriage itself is by far more important than the ceremony if you ask me and that's why I ceded all decisions to my wife. I want to have a happy marriage with her over all other considerations and so she got to have the perfect start that she wanted, I was just glad to be there with her for it. I don't care about wedding photos, who marries us, who was there, it's one day in our lives in the thousands I hope to have with her.

I want her to look back on that day joy and pride, and be able to show our kids the photos one day with a smile on her face. To me it was just another day I got to spend with her and one in which she was main focus, a day for her to be able to actually see in everything around her how much she means to me and how proud I am to be with her.

So yeah, if I were the OP I'd let her decide and go with that but I'd try and do it somewhere more awesome than a registry office.

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A female reader, Tisha-1 United States +, writes (13 June 2014):

Tisha-1 agony auntIt might help if our original poster actually did a followup and gave more information about their respective levels of commitment to Catholicism and atheism. Surprising that this hasn't come up before in a four year relationship. Haven't you discussed your views with each other?

I'd be happy to start an article, something like, "Perspectives of weddings, how do religious or atheist viewpoints affect the ceremony?' Then you can discuss to your heart's content without hijacking the OPs thread.

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A female reader, CindyCares Italy +, writes (12 June 2014):

CindyCares agony aunt Sorry Getta, maybe I did not make myself clear. What I said in my post was not to start a religious or philosophical debate on DC , which would not be the right venue, I said it because I think it is very relevant to the OP's quandary. The OP defines his Gf as atheist, but in practice there will be a big difference if she is "just " agnostic or something similar, or if she is a real atheist.

An agnostic, or non-believer or similar definition ,thinks probably it's all mumbo jumbo but hey whatever, if it's to make a loved one happy, might as well going on with the show.

An atheist thinks it is all mumbo- jumbo, an EVIL mumbo jumbo of which he/ she wants no part, and... you are aware, of course, that in a Catholic marriage rite you commit solemnly, in front of witnesses , to educate your future children in the Catholic religion . Do you really think that an atheist would go along with that , just to be a good sport and not spoil the festive mood ?...

Of course one can always " cheat " so to speak- promise with your fingers crossed, in a way. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what I did many years ago, young and superficial, I did not give a f... about any religion, my fiance' even less.... But his folks would have had a heart attack if we had done something so heathen and "communist " ( their definition ) as a civil wedding.... so, we got married in a church, I promised, he promised, whatever, let's get it done- and , of course, we did not keep the promise, our son was NOT raised as a Catholic and has never seen the inside of a Catholic church as other than a tourist. At the time, again, young and superficial, I felt no regret or remorse whatsoever about this, then ,I guess ,we just wanted to have everybody happy and smiling in the wedding pics.

Funnily enough, I incorporated faith in my life ( but not the Catholic faith ) much later, in my 40's ... and since when I understood the importance and dignity and

seriousness of ANY faith ( for its believers ), I regret what I did. If I could go back in time, I would not accept to toy so superficially with anybody's religious beliefs. I would not promise something in the name of god , fully knowing that I do NOT mean business - it does not matter if it's a god I don't believe in, it's a matter of respect and moral integrity.

So my point is simply- if this girlfriend is really an atheist AND a person of honour and integrity ( like I was NOT when I got married ) , she will definitely not accept a religious wedding.

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A female reader, CindyCares Italy +, writes (12 June 2014):

CindyCares agony aunt No Getta, that would be an agnostic- someone who thinks there are no proofs or ways to decide for or against the existence of god, reason for which he shrugs it off and chooses to focus on other stuff, since the wghole question of god or no god is futile to him.

An atheist is a staunch disbeliever in the existence of god, an opposer of the very concept of divinity, and I doubt he ( she , in this case ) would accept to join in a ceremony that for him it's just a shameful, indecorous farce. What you tolerate , you perpetuate, and a true aheist would be adverse to take an active part in perpetuating what to him is a damaging, dangerous scam.

Of course there are always individual exceptions, like Cerberus who chose to be flexible about the ceremony in order to have a very memorable, fairytale wedding in a castle ( Well done, btw . Much better than 5 minutes at some non descript register office ). But there are other atheists who are much more, let's say, militant. So it all depends from how militant is this girl, if he can be prevail her with some adjustment to join in a Catholic ceremony ( like, as long is not in a church but on a beach at dawn , etc. ) Otherwise , there's really no compromise, the OP can at most not marry her, but can't drag her forcibly in front of a priest.

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A male reader, Xearo Trinidad and Tobago +, writes (12 June 2014):

I think there just has to be a compromise somewhere. Perhaps a civil ceremony in a religious place/location. Like a different country or so. Not sure why there is an argument of religious beliefs or lack there of in this thread but if I were in your situation I would end up giving the wedding to the woman. I would perhaps take a compromise like a man cave.

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A reader, anonymous, writes (12 June 2014):

No offence Getta but that's not correct seeing as she's stated so clearly she doesn't want a church wedding that he needed to come to the internet for advice. This isn't her taking something away from him in that regard at all, atheism isn't a lack of values, it's the opposition to religious ones.

Atheists for the most part, me included find churches offensive places run by seedy liars. Houses of abuse and oppression with symbols of torture and death everywhere, with mindless drones repeating chants of praise to a fictional being. It's not a lack of value of the religious ceremony, that's agnosticism, to atheists a church ceremony is like doing it chained up in a prison, being subjugated in a hall of indoctrination, a nice place to go if you want to listen to stories of divine genocide, the impurity of women and symbolically cannibalise a zombie that is his own father.

Not exactly a joyful place in which to have the best day of your life.

My wife and I only did the priest thing because it was convenient for us. We kind of liked the idea of using the church to benefit us, to serve our laziness.

Agnostic is indifference, there is no indifference in atheism. It is against what she values to do it in a church, which is why they haven't been able to find a solution.

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A reader, anonymous, writes (12 June 2014):

It's up to the woman in my mind.

A wedding is their day, the thing they dream of more than we do. I let my wife make all those decisions, it helps that she also lives for organising things.

Neither of us are religious so we got married in a castle but seeing as it was Italy we got a catholic priest to do it there. It was handy seeing as we're both Irish so we had baptisms and confirmations, and could get the proof easily, as is required there, I think, she did all that stuff and the castle was consecrated so the priest could do it there.

To be honest we detest religion, it's meaningless and harmful. We just used the priest option so we could officially become wed in the castle without having to make a trip to a town hall too.

Maybe you can do something similar, there are other consecrated places that aren't churches where a catholic priest can do the ceremony. I mean she's there to make her vows to you, not "god", what does it matter who does the ceremony for her you know? Darth Vader, a registrar or a Catholic priest, who cares? All that matters to her in my mind is the church thing, no offence but churches are shit places with effigies of a man being tortured to death everywhere. Might aswell get married in an execution chamber or a dungeon.

Find a castle or other such place that has been consecrated by the Catholic church and get married by a priest. See if she likes that idea.

You don't have to get married in a church to have a catholic wedding, and seeing as the whole god thing doesn't matter to her she'll surely let you have a priest do it if it's a castle decked with flowers beside the sea or something.

As for the raising the kids as Catholics thing, just agree, doesn't mean she actually has to do it.

There's your compromise, somewhere that's not a foreboding symbol of oppression to atheists but by a priest so you to can satisfy your whacky superstitions too.

Oh and I know you didn't ask, but your kids should decide for themselves whether they'll adopt religion. But something tells me that marrying an atheist means your not that fundamental about the whole thing.

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A female reader, Aunty BimBim Australia +, writes (12 June 2014):

Aunty BimBim agony auntWhat's going to happen when you have kids, have you discussed that BIG issue?

A cousin of mine was an Anglican church goer, her fiancé insisted even though he hadn't been in a church since primary school) they marry in a catholic church .... they did! She also had to promise in front of the priest any children would be raised in the Catholic faith.

He was an adulterating sort, after numerous affairs he finally left her and the two little kids while he went off into the sunset with wife number two, several wives followed. Meanwhile the mother of his children was left almost destitute because he also had a very clever accountant.

The promise to the priest regards the children being raised in the Catholic faith was not kept, she raised the kids on her own, with no help from their very catholic father, no financial support, he didn't want contact with them, there were no birthday cards or Christmas gifts .... and she cleaned other people's houses while the kids were at kindy and later, at school.

If you are a staunch catholic and attend church and are heavily involved in the church then I would suggest an atheist wife would eventually cause major problems for you both, and any subsequent family.

HOWEVER, if you want to get married in a catholic church because you were once baptised a catholic and that's what catholics do, if you don't attend church on a regular basis and are not involved in the church, in a way that it is part of your everyday life then you need to take a good long hard look at what being a catholic really means to you, as an individual. Ask yourself the hard questions about what you mean by being a catholic.

To be honest, if you were a true catholic, with the church being part of your everyday life, I doubt you would have got entangled with an atheist in the first place, but are in fact the same sort of catholic my cousin got herself involved with, in which case you should accept the truth, you might be christened into a particular brand of church but don't practice the brand, and should drop the "I am a catholic we do it like this" mantra because it doesn't mean jack!

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A female reader, Ciar Canada + , writes (12 June 2014):

Ciar agony auntMy mum is Catholic and my father grew up Methodist (but doesn't believe in or practice any religion) and they were able to marry in a Catholic church, as long as my father agreed to allow their us (the children) to be raised as Catholics.

I daresay the same would apply to an atheist.

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